OMG Politics, I'm over it already.

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mongooz said:
i posted that i agree that TPP needed to be shot down, several pages ago. i got heat for it. the way it was structured it would not have been best for OUR workforce.
those kind of trade deals NEED to be entered into with each country separately, not as one big package. and the reason is carrot and stick. if it's a great big package and one of the nations starts stepping outside the boundaries, and we were going to do something about it, then the other countries would take the heat also.
if, on the other hand, we had separate deals with each, two thing happen that are better. one, we can pull the deal if they are being bad and not effect everyone else. two, it gives all those we are dealing with incentive not be competitive (against each other) a little bit.

but, you know, i don't know shit.
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Heat? what heat did you get? No one was satisfied with the TPP but some people do think we need to do something to try and encourage our export ability & get trade partners that shortcut environmental and labor protection on a more level playing field.
 
Lerxst said:
Heat? what heat did you get? No one was satisfied with the TPP but some people do think we need to do something to try and encourage our export ability & get trade partners that shortcut environmental and labor protection on a more level playing field.
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i think we do need to encourage other countries that we trade with to buy more of our exports. i do not want to have trade partners that shortcut positive environmental or labor practices. china is a freakin' cesspool both environmentally and in the way they treat their people. i don't know who the genius fuck was that decided to get in bed with china to finance our national debt, but it was a BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD idea. now we CAN'T tell them to go fuck off because we don't like their trade/labor policies.
 
think about this example w/r/t jobs, trade and our global economy

At a previous job we could:
Buy raw materials, parts and components from China
Send QA inspectors & engineers to China to validate the quality of those materials, components & parts prior to shipment & deal with delays on getting a new run of parts that meet spec from the mfg
Ship those materials, parts & components to a fabricators in Croatia
Send QA inspectors & engineers to Croatia to validate the quality of the fab & assembly then deal with several weeks of delays and re-fab
Take the assembled item, the size of a grain silo and put it on a truck to transport it to a port
Put the assembled item on a boat and ship it to the USA
Put the assembled item on a truck at the port and ship it across the country to the job site
Pay all the export/import/duty fees/admin overhead and admin costs of multi-national mfg & shipping

....all for about the cost to purchase materials, parts and components in the USA
 
mongooz said:
i think we do need to encourage other countries that we trade with to buy more of our exports. i do not want to have trade partners that shortcut positive environmental or labor practices. china is a freakin' cesspool both environmentally and in the way they treat their people. i don't know who the genius fuck was that decided to get in bed with china to finance our national debt, but it was a BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD idea. now we CAN'T tell them to go fuck off because we don't like their trade/labor policies.
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Policies of governments that allow companies to exploit their labor & environmental resources are part of the problem as they keep costs so much lower in those same countries. If you can encourage those countries to limit these exploitative practices, it's an improvement for the people & environment and lessens the disparity between operating in different countries, reducing some of the benefit of moving out of the USA. Truth is there are always going to be places with dirt cheap labor and mfg will exist and you're not going to keep unskilled or low skilled mfg in the USA. Protecting domestic jobs in jeopardy should be a current priority but we've also got to think about how we transform those jobs and workers into occupations that are more resilient, which is a question we've been asking and failing to answer since the 80s when the Japanese car companies started eating us for lunch (and probably long before that)
 
On the interest of full disclosure, and to deflect the discussion off of Tiltsta and Mark...

I reported a post last night in which one forum member questioned another's fitness as a parent based on his political beliefs...it also questioned whether he should be allowed to have contact with his grandchildren...

I found that attack to be highly out of line and setting into dangerous territory...

I stated my strong objection to the tone and intent of that post AND THAT POST ONLY...and the person who posted it...

It was not and is not my intent to have this thread monitored for political content...but when family and parental fitness are questioned based on politics I will not stand silent...
 
Lerxst said:
think about this example w/r/t jobs, trade and our global economy

At a previous job we could:
Buy raw materials, parts and components from China
Send QA inspectors & engineers to China to validate the quality of those materials, components & parts prior to shipment & deal with delays on getting a new run of parts that meet spec from the mfg
Ship those materials, parts & components to a fabricators in Croatia
Send QA inspectors & engineers to Croatia to validate the quality of the fab & assembly then deal with several weeks of delays and re-fab
Take the assembled item, the size of a grain silo and put it on a truck to transport it to a port
Put the assembled item on a boat and ship it to the USA
Put the assembled item on a truck at the port and ship it across the country to the job site
Pay all the export/import/duty fees/admin overhead and admin costs of multi-national mfg & shipping

....all for about the cost to purchase materials, parts and components in the USA
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well, that's nice for the profit margins of the corporation. it isn't helping the working stiffs (or those out of work) here.
just like health care, profit margins shouldn't be the first thing considered, and often times the ONLY thing considered.

edit: if we are REALLY going to create REAL jobs (not fast food etc.) in this country, then the corporations are going to have to suck it up too. they can't be only concerned with how many dollars they make on every penny spent.
 
mongooz said:
well, that's nice for the profit margins of the corporation. it isn't helping the working stiffs (or those out of work) here.
just like health care, profit margins shouldn't be the first thing considered, and often times the ONLY thing considered.
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There was absolutely zero way to source or fabricate domestically on this scale to provide a competitive quote. Who exactly is supposed to eat those massive losses?
 
Manufacturing jobs are never coming back to the scale (and wages) they once were in this country, just like coal mining jobs are never coming back. Anyone who tells you differently either doesn't know what they're talking about or is intentionally misleading you.

There is a global economy now and while I'm certainly no expert I know enough to know that we can't just unplug from it and make things great again.
 
Lerxst said:
There was absolutely zero way to source or fabricate domestically on this scale to provide a competitive quote. Who exactly is supposed to eat those massive losses?
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losses? what losses? i'm talking about getting over having massive profit margins. that's like the bullshit when GM (or whomever) says they LOST 30 billion in the second quarter. if they REALLY lost 30 billion, they'd be out of business. they didn't LOSE 30 billion.....they didn't make 30 billion more profit that they PROJECTED (that was never going to be there to begin with). so then they take a big tax cut on money that was never there. it's a great big shell game and it's being used as an excuse to move jobs out of this country because they're "not as profitable". when is enough....enough?

when the steel industry went in the pooper and a bunch of the auto industry too....they said "we are moving to a 'services' economy. call an IT number....who are you talking to? some guy in New Dehli, that's who. apparently THAT service couldn't be afforded here, so they moved it.

what is our economy going to base upon next? R & D? you can't employ 100 million people on R & D.
 
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shoeless said:
This thread went from political discussion to full-on Trump bashing several hundred pages ago, IMO. Add to that every TV talk show host, comedian, and comedy sketch show like SNL seem to make a living off of Trump bashing, it's not even funny anymore...and he's only been in office 4 days. Time to stop picking that low hanging fruit and step up the game.
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Just pointing out that the sum total of Trumps campaign rhetoric was "bashing". Lyin Ted, Crooked Hillary, I like war heroes that didn't get captured, Jeb is a mess, etc...I could really go on forever.
 
mongooz said:
losses? what losses? i'm talking about getting over having massive profit margins. that's like the bullshit when GM (or whomever) says they LOST 30 billion in the second quarter. if they REALLY lost 30 billion, they'd be out of business. they didn't LOSE 30 billion.....they didn't make 30 billion more profit that they PROJECTED (that was never going to be there to begin with). so then they take a big tax cut on money that was never there. it's a great big shell game and it's being used as an excuse to move jobs out of this country because they're "not as profitable". when is enough....enough?

when the steel industry went in the pooper and a bunch of the auto industry too....they said "we are moving to a 'services' economy. call an IT number....who are you talking to? some guy in New Dehli, that's who. apparently THAT service couldn't be afforded here, so they moved it.

what is our economy going to base upon next? R & D? you can't employ 100 million people on R & D.
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I'm sorry but that perspective doesn't really match the reality of some of the things I've seen and I don't really know how to communicate that effectively.
 
Lerxst said:
I'm sorry but that perspective doesn't really match the reality of some of the things I've seen and I don't really know how to communicate that effectively.
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if there were processes that your company needed to do and those facilities/shops didn't exist here and they did exist in, say croatia, then i can see doing the work there.
but to take an operating facility here and close it and then build another one just like it in another country because it's MORE profitable, not just profitable, but MORE profitable and leaving a few thousand people out of work here, that's bullshit IMO.
 
jelloman said:
On the interest of full disclosure, and to deflect the discussion off of Tiltsta and Mark...

I reported a post last night in which one forum member questioned another's fitness as a parent based on his political beliefs...it also questioned whether he should be allowed to have contact with his grandchildren...

I found that attack to be highly out of line and setting into dangerous territory...

I stated my strong objection to the tone and intent of that post AND THAT POST ONLY...and the person who posted it...

It was not and is not my intent to have this thread monitored for political content...but when family and parental fitness are questioned based on politics I will not stand silent...
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That was me.

I can only apologize insofar as that I shouldn't have broken the rules.

I can concede that my words weren't literal (pulling families apart isn't my kind of Marxism) but I do want to say that my words weren't a simple tantrum. I'm an even-tempered guy, and I'm not going to write something like that just because I've lost my patience or just because I've had a bad day.

The post that motivated me to write that (which I quoted) was vile, labeled women as 'cunts', and not for the first time. It's just the latest in a long long line of misogynsitic bullshit from that forumite. That stupidity tends down to seep down from generation to generation in America (look at a Civil War map) and it's disheartening to know that young children are being exposed to that kind of hate from Day 1.

I appreciate you having the sincerity to step up and acknowledge that you reported my post.

I believe that you reported the wrong post, and that you did so out of dislike for me. Which I can totally 100% absolutely live with. But it's sad because the other guy off the hook, despite the women-hating.
 
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mongooz said:
if there were processes that your company needed to do and those facilities/shops didn't exist here and they did exist in, say croatia, then i can see doing the work there.
but to take an operating facility here and close it and then build another one just like it in another country because it's MORE profitable, not just profitable, but MORE profitable and leaving a few thousand people out of work here, that's bullshit IMO.
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Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way on a corporate or personal level....If it did, we wouldn't be hemorging manufacturing jobs in the first place & we'd still have mom and pop hardware stores rather than Walmart and home depot.

These are multinational/global companies working with other multinational/global companies on projects in the 300 million plus range. Sure we could have insisted on all usa source material and labor and bid the project 25 million higher than our competitors...Guess who isn't getting the work? Sure, the government could dictate a requirement for USA source parts and labor on the project and the company building the plant would say screw that, we will build it in Mexico and ship the refined product over the border into the states. Guess who's still not getting the work?

There's no magic wand here to fix this
 
do we have any proof beyond trump's aides telling us he sold his stock in the company doing the keystone XL pipeline?

given how much he lies I am fairly certain our president just signed an executive order giving business to a company he holds stock in.
 
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