2016-17 NFL Thread.

2112 said:
As a long-suffering (except for a few years back around the millenium.Oh, and those '70's teams that were "the best!" until they ran into the Cowboys,Vikings or Steelers...) Rams fan I wish that Belichick had gone back to Bledsoe for the Super Bowl. I think the Rams would have won if he had played.

Of course, if not for that damn tuck rule the Rams may have faced off against the Raiders and romped to a blow-out.

I like to tell that to my Raider-fan brother that he did not want his team,with Screen-Pass Gannon,on the same field as the GSOT.

Fuckin Pats ruin everyone's season...
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That is still a very sore subject for us Raider fans. The teams during the Gruden years were some of the most balanced teams ever, and they had a lot of great talent. I would have loved to see them face off against the Rams that year.
 
Ross Tucker was a December waiver pick up who was cut by Belichick in the next training camp. I don't really care to debate BB vs. Gibbs, but I'm tired of the Alternative Facts world in which we live.

Someone who 'played for both coaches' would be a player who had a meaningful role on a team, not a quickly discarded spare part.
 
Looking at the washout of SB-LI, reading friends' social media, I'm struck by how football highlights good and bad tendencies in people.

Real Football Fans Don't Claim the Falcons Choked
I've seen variations on this theme, so I went back and watched the game 2-3 more times. In plain language, the Pats simply made more plays. There were few mistakes made by the Falcons, and in fact they also made many plays. The talking points of the unthoughtful include:
Dumb Talking Point: Why did Atlanta not run on 3rd-and-1 with 6 minutes left? CHOKE!
Reality: Take a look at Matt Ryan's stats and you'll know damn well why they threw. Also, Coleman was injured on the previous play. Seems our national league of Expert Rotisserie Coaches knows how to read beard-stroking 'deep stats,' but has no idea about situational football.
Dumb Talking Point: Ryan's fumble - and Freeman's missed block - were classic chokes!
Reality: They were mistakes, ones that all teams try to limit but inevitably encounter. Did LaGarrette Blount choke? Brady? Both turned the ball over. On Ryan's fumble, Hightower made an excellent play. Ryan should have pulled the ball down, but then ...
Dumb Talking Point: .... he would have been CHOKING just like he did when he got sacked, taking the Falcons out of FG range a series later. Not getting rid of the ball was a huge choke!
Reality: Ryan had just fumbled, and was caught by a bull rush. He ate the ball. Was he supposed to anticipate a dumb holding penalty one play later?
Really, Really Dumb Talking Point: All Atlanta had to do was run the ball, kick a FG, and "The Game Would Be Over."
Reality: This is the most annoyingly idiotic trope I've heard repeated all week. I have neither read nor heard a single fool who mouthed this mention that NE had all of their TO's remaining, and would have received the ball with 3 minutes left, down 10. Please ask any Packers fan if 10 points is an impossible deficit to overcome in three minutes. Had Atlanta gotten a first down there, or a TD, that would have been The End, forcing the Pats to either score 10 inside the two minute warning with few TO's, or two TD's.

Rewatching the game, the Patriots simply made great play after great play. It seems casual viewers are only capable of seeing skill position play, but there's a reason the other guys are on the field. The Pats made great plays all over the field during the 4th quarter, just not the kind that show up on ESPN.

Last but not least, we have the Uber Talking Point: No one likes the Patriots because they cheat!

The Patriots filmed the Jets' practice - which, at the time, many NFL sources said was common practice - including several head coaches who were active at the time. Belichick apologized and did not complain about his fine. And let's assume Tom Brady committed the Crime of the Century and had his lackeys reduce two footballs from 12.8 to 11.7 PSI (if you are a bicyclist with a gauge pump, you know how hilarious this is) as the difference-maker in a 45-3 win over the Colts. Meanwhile, that same season:
- Aaron Rodgers gives an interview where he says he "prefers my footballs over-inflated."
- The Panthers are fined $8,900 for illegally having their ball boys super-heat their game balls in front of a heater. Read that again.
- Peyton Manning's wife, cough, suddenly starts using steroids shipped to her by a doctor who has been legally prosecuted for providing PED's to athletes, and was visited by Manning himself during his recovery from career-threatening neck surgery. If you don't know, most pro athletes use steroids to facilitate recovery, not just build muscle-mass.

Nah, people hate the Patriots for the same reason I hated - HATED - the New York Yankees. It's because they win, and enjoy it, and don't engage in feel-good 'aw shucks' behavior after winning. Could they be more gracious? Undoubtedly. And in fact, I never rebut someone who has called the Pats ungracious.
But the piling on of "well, we have no proof you didn't so we can say you did and then that means my opinion is fact" bullshit is exactly the sort of crap ruining this country. Science? NAH! Who needs it? Fair and equal application of rules and principles? Nope!

People hated the Patriots long, long before they filmed the Jets. So, suck it, haters.

**** Postscript - somewhere in the realm of two dozen SB records were set Sunday. You can Google and find the NFL.com article on same if interested.
 
Example of a great play: on 3rd-and-10 from their own 9, Brady hits Hogan for 16.
Falcons were blitzing, and if you look at the replay from behind the end zone, Brady makes the throw before Hogan even makes his break. Not unusual in a short passing game, but that throw traveled 25 yards in the air. And he caught it in stride, just between two defenders.

That's an unreal football play, and probably lost on most viewers at home, because it looked so effortless.
 
Danhedonia said:
Ross Tucker was a December waiver pick up who was cut by Belichick in the next training camp. I don't really care to debate BB vs. Gibbs, but I'm tired of the Alternative Facts world in which we live.

Someone who 'played for both coaches' would be a player who had a meaningful role on a team, not a quickly discarded spare part.
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Simmer down. Like I said I'm a skins fan and think Bill is the best. Can we not have a discussion? Btw Ross was traded to Cleveland which is worse than being cut.
 
Danhedonia said:
Looking at the washout of SB-LI, reading friends' social media, I'm struck by how football highlights good and bad tendencies in people.

Real Football Fans Don't Claim the Falcons Choked
I've seen variations on this theme, so I went back and watched the game 2-3 more times. In plain language, the Pats simply made more plays. There were few mistakes made by the Falcons, and in fact they also made many plays. The talking points of the unthoughtful include:
Dumb Talking Point: Why did Atlanta not run on 3rd-and-1 with 6 minutes left? CHOKE!
Reality: Take a look at Matt Ryan's stats and you'll know damn well why they threw. Also, Coleman was injured on the previous play. Seems our national league of Expert Rotisserie Coaches knows how to read beard-stroking 'deep stats,' but has no idea about situational football.
Dumb Talking Point: Ryan's fumble - and Freeman's missed block - were classic chokes!
Reality: They were mistakes, ones that all teams try to limit but inevitably encounter. Did LaGarrette Blount choke? Brady? Both turned the ball over. On Ryan's fumble, Hightower made an excellent play. Ryan should have pulled the ball down, but then ...
Dumb Talking Point: .... he would have been CHOKING just like he did when he got sacked, taking the Falcons out of FG range a series later. Not getting rid of the ball was a huge choke!
Reality: Ryan had just fumbled, and was caught by a bull rush. He ate the ball. Was he supposed to anticipate a dumb holding penalty one play later?
Really, Really Dumb Talking Point: All Atlanta had to do was run the ball, kick a FG, and "The Game Would Be Over."
Reality: This is the most annoyingly idiotic trope I've heard repeated all week. I have neither read nor heard a single fool who mouthed this mention that NE had all of their TO's remaining, and would have received the ball with 3 minutes left, down 10. Please ask any Packers fan if 10 points is an impossible deficit to overcome in three minutes. Had Atlanta gotten a first down there, or a TD, that would have been The End, forcing the Pats to either score 10 inside the two minute warning with few TO's, or two TD's.

Rewatching the game, the Patriots simply made great play after great play. It seems casual viewers are only capable of seeing skill position play, but there's a reason the other guys are on the field. The Pats made great plays all over the field during the 4th quarter, just not the kind that show up on ESPN.

Last but not least, we have the Uber Talking Point: No one likes the Patriots because they cheat!

The Patriots filmed the Jets' practice - which, at the time, many NFL sources said was common practice - including several head coaches who were active at the time. Belichick apologized and did not complain about his fine. And let's assume Tom Brady committed the Crime of the Century and had his lackeys reduce two footballs from 12.8 to 11.7 PSI (if you are a bicyclist with a gauge pump, you know how hilarious this is) as the difference-maker in a 45-3 win over the Colts. Meanwhile, that same season:
- Aaron Rodgers gives an interview where he says he "prefers my footballs over-inflated."
- The Panthers are fined $8,900 for illegally having their ball boys super-heat their game balls in front of a heater. Read that again.
- Peyton Manning's wife, cough, suddenly starts using steroids shipped to her by a doctor who has been legally prosecuted for providing PED's to athletes, and was visited by Manning himself during his recovery from career-threatening neck surgery. If you don't know, most pro athletes use steroids to facilitate recovery, not just build muscle-mass.

Nah, people hate the Patriots for the same reason I hated - HATED - the New York Yankees. It's because they win, and enjoy it, and don't engage in feel-good 'aw shucks' behavior after winning. Could they be more gracious? Undoubtedly. And in fact, I never rebut someone who has called the Pats ungracious.
But the piling on of "well, we have no proof you didn't so we can say you did and then that means my opinion is fact" bullshit is exactly the sort of crap ruining this country. Science? NAH! Who needs it? Fair and equal application of rules and principles? Nope!

People hated the Patriots long, long before they filmed the Jets. So, suck it, haters.

**** Postscript - somewhere in the realm of two dozen SB records were set Sunday. You can Google and find the NFL.com article on same if interested.
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You need some help. Your team just won the super bowl and you act like someone just pissed in your cornflakes. Celebrate. Bill won't coach forever and then you'll be back to no Super Bowls for 20 years. Trust me, I've been there for 20.
 
The Gibbs reference is interesting. No doubting on his credentials. Simply looking at numbers, Belechick has it, hands down, but there are others in the debate like Gibbs or Bill Walsh in SF.

Walsh's system was revolutionary at the time - he changed the way the offenses play the game. And the Montana argument was similar to the Brady argument - he's a system QB. All he had to do was throw little short passes and execute Walsh's plays.

The nod would probably go to Belechick because of the salary cap putting big restrictions on personnel decisions that the other great coaches in the debate didn't have to make.
 
Thanks for telling me what I need. Just trying to help with a reality check.

Perfectly prepared for no Super Bowls for 20 years. Frankly, would love to have Sundays in Jan/Feb back to go skiing.
 
frunobulax said:
The Gibbs reference is interesting. No doubting on his credentials. Simply looking at numbers, Belechick has it, hands down, but there are others in the debate like Gibbs or Bill Walsh in SF.

Walsh's system was revolutionary at the time - he changed the way the offenses play the game. And the Montana argument was similar to the Brady argument - he's a system QB. All he had to do was throw little short passes and execute Walsh's plays.

The nod would probably go to Belechick because of the salary cap putting big restrictions on personnel decisions that the other great coaches in the debate didn't have to make.
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I don't know about him coming away with it hands down. Their winning percentage is very close. Where I give Bill the nod is that he has done it in the era of free agency. I hope Brady retires before Bill. I want to see Bill without Brady because Bill was terrible in Cleveland, but so is everyone except Schottenheimer. Bill and Brady are like the chicken and egg to me. Hell maybe it is 50-50 with them and the stars aligned to bring them together.
 
Danhedonia said:
Thanks for telling me what I need. Just trying to help with a reality check.

Perfectly prepared for no Super Bowls for 20 years. Frankly, would love to have Sundays in Jan/Feb back to go skiing.
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Thanks for honoring us with your great football mind. I'm surprised your not on the sidelines on sundays.
 
Interesting posts Dan. Lots of good points and observations. I was in awe of the comeback because it did look so effortlessly executed...aside from the one circus catch. I know that in order for it to look effortless like that everyone has to have their maximum concentration, and they have to perform near the edge of their performance limit - then they have to have perfect timing & be in synch with each other.

Brady was so relaxed even after the interception prior to half time. That has to have a positive affect on his entire team. The Patriots looked fresh in the 4th quarter as if it were the first quarter.
 
frunobulax said:
2008 - QB Matt Cassel - 11-5
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Which is my biggest complaint with people saying Brady is the best ever. If you are the best ever, your backup doesn't take the team to 11-5. And if he does, that means he is really good and either becomes the starter or goes to another team where he shines. Which didn't happen. Cassel couldn't even keep the starting job in Dallas a couple of years ago when they were terrible. Don't get me wrong, Tom is one of the best, but like anything, there are way too many other parts in play to say "this guy is the best hands down." Unless you are talking about a 1 person sport like swimming or golf.
 
Chad said:
Which is my biggest complaint with people saying Brady is the best ever. If you are the best ever, your backup doesn't take the team to 11-5. And if he does, that means he is really good and either becomes the starter or goes to another team where he shines. Which didn't happen. Cassel couldn't even keep the starting job in Dallas a couple of years ago when they were terrible. Don't get me wrong, Tom is one of the best, but like anything, there are way too many other parts in play to say "this guy is the best hands down." Unless you are talking about a 1 person sport like swimming or golf.
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And the Pippin-led Bulls were able to go 55-27 without Jordan.

:shrug:
 
Chad said:
Basketball is so different than football it isn't even funny. Comparing players from the 2 is silly.
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I'm saying that's it's irrelevant. If you're the best ever, you're the best ever, regardless of whether you're playing with the all-star team or whether you're playing with a bunch of high schoolers.

There are lots of variables at work here, but it's unfair to criticize a player for having a great support, given that what he's accomplished is unprecedented in a half-century.

And I say this as someone who hates everything about football. And Brady too, after 2016.
 
Flamencology said:
I'm saying that's it's irrelevant. If you're the best ever, you're the best ever, regardless of whether you're playing with the all-star team or whether you're playing with a bunch of high schoolers.

There are lots of variables at work here, but it's unfair to criticize a player for having a great support, given that what he's accomplished is unprecedented in a half-century.

And I say this as someone who hates everything about football. And Brady too, after 2016.
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But its not. If he is the best ever, the Pats would have stunk the year he was out, or Cassell would have been great somewhere else and neither of those things played out. If you are the best ever, you would add something to the team that others couldn't. Look at the Colts, they went 2-14 the year Peyton couldn't play. When Brady doesn't play, the Pats don't miss him at all. Even this year, the 4 game suspension was nothing. That's not saying he isn't a great QB, but it does say his team is unbelievably well built and coached.
 
PutinSuperBowl.jpg
 
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