NFL 2017-18 Thread
- Thread starter sunvalleylaw
- Start date
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
Yeah, the standing over the top was pretty bad. I didn't address that. Don't know if that will or should turn it into a suspension or not. Maybe, as that sort of thing just eggs everyone else on to retaliate, etc. In baseball, the benches just clear and typically there is a bunch of rooster strutting and no one gets hurt. This kind of thing is, and has, hurt people.
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
In this case, he appears to mouth off to a coach, who gets after him as he was coming off the field. Not my style, but I think if I were Brady, I might have found the guy annoying too, in this case. And I am not a fan of Brady's demeanor and style that way.
smorgdonkey
Kick Henry Jackassowski
I am ok with the one game suspension for Gronk. I think that he learned the lesson long before that though. It is a typical over reaction to frustration. Even the best can fall for that in a tough contact game like football or hockey. The odd part about the suspension to me is that I had heard a few pro commentators say that they thought that there would be a fine and no suspension.
The Brady thing... that coach used to be his teammate and they know each other well. They have a well enough established relationship to have a 2 way street with any and all communication. Would Brady do that to Belicheck? No.
The Brady thing... that coach used to be his teammate and they know each other well. They have a well enough established relationship to have a 2 way street with any and all communication. Would Brady do that to Belicheck? No.
smorgdonkey
Kick Henry Jackassowski
That hit on the Bengals' player was terrible. Even more terrible is the celebration of it with the posturing. Exactly what are you 'saying' at that moment? I can hit you when you aren't expecting it with a torpedo helmet hit and knock you out-of-town how big and bad I am?
Danhedonia
Noted duckfat enthusiast
" nowhere near the likes of the Gronk hit"
Here is where we disagree. Pure head shot (and that game had ... so, so many ... ). Smith-Shuster. Shazier hurting himself by leading with his helmet. That disgusting attempt at decapitating Antonio Brown. Or diving on a guy while he's down. I look at this two ways:
1. All of those plays above AND Gronkowski's are dangerous and unwarranted, and expose other players to injury.
2. Gronkowski led with the shoulder, not the crown of his helmet. OTOH, in the Bungles/Thuglers game, those guys were headhunting, with their helmets. My opinion is that is worse behavior than Gronkowski's, though I'd pretty much agree with Belichick's summation ("that was total bullshit"). Since the days of Singletary it's been acknowledged that leading with the helmet is the most dangerous thing you can do.
Over time, I've seen various NFL players do a lot of similar thing (please take a look at the Broncos' headhunting of Cam Newton in 2016, just disgusting). Suspensions? Not a one to be found.
Last night's game was also indicative -- how many cheap shot, headhunters have the Steelers 'featured'? Joey Porter; Hines Ward; William Gay; Mike Mitchell. I really can't picture Mike Tomlin calling one of his players' dirty hits 'complete bullshit,' can you? Here's a great link to an article - this season - about Tomlin being 'irate' that the refs called a penalty on his player for headhunting.
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...roughness-nfl-rules-2017/stories/201709120180
Notice that there were no suspensions?
I think Gronkowski is being made a poster boy, and I don't like it, but I do also see the need for the league to stop this stuff -- last night was disgusting.
Here is where we disagree. Pure head shot (and that game had ... so, so many ... ). Smith-Shuster. Shazier hurting himself by leading with his helmet. That disgusting attempt at decapitating Antonio Brown. Or diving on a guy while he's down. I look at this two ways:
1. All of those plays above AND Gronkowski's are dangerous and unwarranted, and expose other players to injury.
2. Gronkowski led with the shoulder, not the crown of his helmet. OTOH, in the Bungles/Thuglers game, those guys were headhunting, with their helmets. My opinion is that is worse behavior than Gronkowski's, though I'd pretty much agree with Belichick's summation ("that was total bullshit"). Since the days of Singletary it's been acknowledged that leading with the helmet is the most dangerous thing you can do.
Over time, I've seen various NFL players do a lot of similar thing (please take a look at the Broncos' headhunting of Cam Newton in 2016, just disgusting). Suspensions? Not a one to be found.
Last night's game was also indicative -- how many cheap shot, headhunters have the Steelers 'featured'? Joey Porter; Hines Ward; William Gay; Mike Mitchell. I really can't picture Mike Tomlin calling one of his players' dirty hits 'complete bullshit,' can you? Here's a great link to an article - this season - about Tomlin being 'irate' that the refs called a penalty on his player for headhunting.
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...roughness-nfl-rules-2017/stories/201709120180
Notice that there were no suspensions?
I think Gronkowski is being made a poster boy, and I don't like it, but I do also see the need for the league to stop this stuff -- last night was disgusting.
335clone
Living the dream
Not going to argue that maybe there is uneven penalties/consequences that need to be treated more uniformly/severely by the league.
But watch Gronks video again. He led with his elbow to the back of the neck, and there is no way White could have known or prepared for that hit.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...game-for-dirty-hit-on-bills-tredavious-white/
Danhedonia
Noted duckfat enthusiast
I agree - he led with the elbow, and it hit him in the back of the neck. I don't see (and it's massive speculation here) that he was aiming ... and let's not lose the thread: bad, bad freaking play.
I will stand by the remark that there's plays like that, and then there's headhunting. Of course, I once met Daryl Stingley, so maybe I'm biased. It still makes me ill that Tatum wrote a bragging tell-all about his headhunting, and received money from that, while Stingley faded and eventually died from the injury.
The need for sportsmanship encompasses many things, including the avoidance of needless tragedy. As I perceive the various ugliness of random nasty plays, I have a hard time perceiving intent on Gronkowski's part, whereas I perceive a lot of intent on the parts of other players.
Just so I don't seem a hopeless homer: Brandon Merriweather and Logan Mankins were total cheap shot artists on the Pats.
On the other hand, I do find it indicative that the same teams lead the league in UC penalties year after year.
I will stand by the remark that there's plays like that, and then there's headhunting. Of course, I once met Daryl Stingley, so maybe I'm biased. It still makes me ill that Tatum wrote a bragging tell-all about his headhunting, and received money from that, while Stingley faded and eventually died from the injury.
The need for sportsmanship encompasses many things, including the avoidance of needless tragedy. As I perceive the various ugliness of random nasty plays, I have a hard time perceiving intent on Gronkowski's part, whereas I perceive a lot of intent on the parts of other players.
Just so I don't seem a hopeless homer: Brandon Merriweather and Logan Mankins were total cheap shot artists on the Pats.
On the other hand, I do find it indicative that the same teams lead the league in UC penalties year after year.
335clone
Living the dream
I think we pretty much agree. It is clear that Gronk meant to pounce on White after the whistle and out of bounds. Whether he meant to land elbow first on his neck is certainly debatable, and only he knows what his intent was, though I'm not sure how clearly he was thinking. But that is what happened. Then there is a considerable size/weight difference that doesn't help the situation. Is Gronk the biggest, worst offender in the league? Clearly not. I bet he learns from this and tries to be better, which I can't say for many of the others who deserve the headhunter title. There is certainly a thug mindset in some players in the league, regardless of skin color.
Danhedonia
Noted duckfat enthusiast
Yeah, but ....
There's what we discuss, and what we do not.
The Steelers: are always in the top 5 of the league for UC / UR every year. Every year.
Is that something to discuss, or as Rapistberger says "that's the AFC North?"
There's what we discuss, and what we do not.
The Steelers: are always in the top 5 of the league for UC / UR every year. Every year.
Is that something to discuss, or as Rapistberger says "that's the AFC North?"
335clone
Living the dream
I suppose that is something the league should certainly look at. I personally feel that unsportsmanlike conduct is too broad a category to encompass all the fouls that fall under it. Sure, there are in-game ejections, but not enough of them. Keep hitting both players with big fines, as well as coaches. You hit a defensive coordinator with a $100,000 fine for a hit like Gronks (not trying to pile on him, but it's a current example), and I'll bet he shuts down that shit pretty fast. Do that again and you are benched or off the team. That's the only way to stop the nod and wink culture from the sidelines. You have to penalize everyone associated with the behavior.
Danhedonia
Noted duckfat enthusiast
This is why I used UC / UR - Unnecessary Roughness/Unsportsmanlike conduct. If you read the article I linked above, it begins to go into those stats.
And I completely agree w/you that it is about culture, which comes from leadership. Remember Buddy Ryan's defenses, with the bounties, and him high fiving guys who laid people out? Football is rough enough without that crap. I teach a lot of football players (and we are state champs, send kids to D1 schools, etc.), and they are coached to play really hard, but not dirty.
It tells me a lot that Gronk's hit surprised people, whereas the MNF game surprised nobody. No one. Funny, owners get upset about "the inmates running the prison" when it comes to human rights, but giving each other life-altering injuries while the refs lose control? "It's the AFC North."
I guess I'm one of those rotten Americans who is watching the NFL less these days (and given the Pats' ascendancy and my 40 year history of being their fan, that's saying a lot). But it's not because of anthem demonstrations, it's stuff like this. I just don't want to watch it.
A good start might be to really come down hard on coaches, as you say. Also, to really lower the boom on players who lead with the helmet.
335clone
Living the dream
Completely agree. Remember when the Raiders used to be the meanest team in the league? I guess they passed that baton. I too have watched the NFL less this year, but that is mostly because of the 49rs ineptitude. That seems to be changing, so I'm in!
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
I have been thinking about this also, and as I hinted at above, thinking that maybe a strict liability fine plus suspension for the prohibited helmet stuff, and perhaps a fine for the D coordinator, would help. Put the burden on the athletes to learn, and the coaches to train, proper technique that can be hard playing, but not dirty and not as dangerous (recognizing the very sport is dangerous).
The Seahawks have a tackling training vid they have been updating each year. Not saying they are saints, or perfect, or never commit a foul, or are the best, or any of that. Just an example of training for proper technique rather than helmet contact.
http://www.seahawks.com/video/2016/04/20/2016-seahawks-tackling
Chad
Slender Hobbit
I disagree with that. Do you arrest an employer because an employee does something illegal on the job? If you find the D coordinator is encouraging those kinds of hits, absolutely fine them but you can't hold a coach financially responsible for the player. Maybe fine the team for repeat offenders, then the team can decide if the fines are worth keeping the guy around.
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
I can see that point of view, sure. But if the league is getting serious about it, then something a bit more drastic has to happen. Perhaps automatic suspensions, without pay, and with a fine would be enough. I don't know. Would have to be severe enough to hurt so it would not be like the bruiser in the hockey team who just sits it out and skates back on.
335clone
Living the dream
My company is most definitely liable if I do something wrong and cause an issue. They are on the hook to show that I was properly trained or else they can be fined. Happens all the time. Take driving a forklift for example. If I run a forklift off a curb, an incident report is generated. The company would have to provide all relevant training documents to prove I knew what to do and how to do it. If they do that, the liability is on me for not following my training. If they can't, it is on them for not properly training me.
Chad
Slender Hobbit
Totally different IMO. First your company is liable if they don’t train you. Not your boss, IE the D coordinator. I said fining the team would be ok. Second it isn't an issue of not being properly trained. These guys have been told since pop warner not to lead with the head. I think in a normal work place, these hits are more in line with someone punching a co-worker in the face not the same as not being trained to use heavy machinery. Your boss wouldn’t be fined or fired if you went nuts and punched someone in the face would they? It would be your ass on the line.
335clone
Living the dream
Well I think it's definitely either coached or ignored behavior, and if the team really wanted it to stop they would. These guys aren't 'going crazy' (for the most part anyway) and unless they are penalized the coaches don't seem to care. When they get hurt, everyone wrings their hands and sends their thoughts and prayers.
Where have we heard that before?
Chad
Slender Hobbit
I may agree with you if it didn't seem like the same folks do it more than others. Then you have folks like Brandon Meriweather. He played for 4 teams and was a head hunter on all of them. When he was with the Skins, he was the only player with cheap shots on the team. If it were the coaches, you'd think there would be more. Ndamukong Suh has had just as many cheap shot with the Dolphins as he had with the Lions. When you look at the list of suspensions, it seems to be one player from a few different teams, not 4 or 5 from the same one with the exception of bounty gate. And as I said in my first post, if there is proof of the coach is encouraging that, then by all means fine them. But you can't fine Josh McDaniels because Gronk made a bone head decision. You don't fine every D coordinator Suh has played for because the guy obviously has issues. And to be honest, if the league really wanted this stuff gone, guys like Suh and Burfict would be kicked out of the league. They have had multiple suspensions and fines for hits and yet they are still on the field on Sundays.