DFB
Kick Henry Jackassowski
Good read.
Charlottesville
- Thread starter Danhedonia
- Start date
Peen Simmons
Let’s Get Obtuse!
That's a bingo.
iamjethro
BREAUX
I will get blasted for this probably. It will be ok if I do.
I am totally anti-racism. I am also deeply self recognized as Southern in historical identity. Arkansas is not deep south, but is still considered Southern.
I know that the symbolism that has become associated with the Confederate flag, and many names of that era are too deep to be erased or explained away. I also know there is much good to be ascribed to the culture that used to try to raise us to be gentlemen with the manners and grace that was supposed to be born into that term.
My fear and the twinge of regret that I see with all the flag burnings and statue breaking or whatever is that you cannot, and should not, erase the history that comes with those artifacts. If there are no statues of General Lee, we still have that time period and the years since to deal with.
The statues , flags and museums should not be what you try to live your life by today, but they still matter as teaching resources. And, like it or not, if you tell a group of people that their ancestors were all evil and that their history is tainted and they should be ashamed of being of the lineage, you alienate them. No one listens when being yelled at.
Destroying links to the past doesn't build a better future. Understanding what was good and bad about that past allows you to shape a future that takes the good things and uses them as a solid foundation for the future.
Again, I do not respect the views of anyone who claims to know the only way or superiority over others. I do respect all those who get caught in the crossfire of two sides hurling insults and neither really cares about the ones they are hurling toward.
I am totally anti-racism. I am also deeply self recognized as Southern in historical identity. Arkansas is not deep south, but is still considered Southern.
I know that the symbolism that has become associated with the Confederate flag, and many names of that era are too deep to be erased or explained away. I also know there is much good to be ascribed to the culture that used to try to raise us to be gentlemen with the manners and grace that was supposed to be born into that term.
My fear and the twinge of regret that I see with all the flag burnings and statue breaking or whatever is that you cannot, and should not, erase the history that comes with those artifacts. If there are no statues of General Lee, we still have that time period and the years since to deal with.
The statues , flags and museums should not be what you try to live your life by today, but they still matter as teaching resources. And, like it or not, if you tell a group of people that their ancestors were all evil and that their history is tainted and they should be ashamed of being of the lineage, you alienate them. No one listens when being yelled at.
Destroying links to the past doesn't build a better future. Understanding what was good and bad about that past allows you to shape a future that takes the good things and uses them as a solid foundation for the future.
Again, I do not respect the views of anyone who claims to know the only way or superiority over others. I do respect all those who get caught in the crossfire of two sides hurling insults and neither really cares about the ones they are hurling toward.
Tig
Fucktangular
As someone born in the South that has ancestors who fought on both sides of the Civil War (as well as the American Revolution and the Texas Revolution), I can at least know where you are coming from. I used to feel that having schools, parks, and buildings named after Confederate soldiers was all just a part of living in the South. That was before I chose to walk around in other's shoes.
That said, history will not be erased by the removal of statues. At most, they should be preserved in a museum that honestly depicts history along with the artifacts. History should be maintained not with statues, but recorded in documentation and referenced to in history books. I don't see anyone fighting to eliminate history, but instead they are saying it is time to stop glorifying the Confederacy. In other words, we've all grown up and are better than that.
Last edited:
mongooz
.
most of that stuff came down within weeks of the defeat of the nazis. but there is a difference there. most of the general population of germany at the time were being 'ruled' by a white supremacist dictator. these people ARE the white supremacists. so as soon as the dictator & company were gone, the symbols came down. what we have here are the white supremacists trying to maintain their symbols.
dmn23
Duller than cardboard
My point was about symbolism. When a community agrees to erect a statue they're effectively exalting the life, actions, and words of that person or the group they represent. The message is one of honor and/or reverence. There's not much nuance to it.
I absolutely agree with the necessity of not forgetting our history, but an awareness of the messages we send—what we value—is just as important.
I absolutely agree with the necessity of not forgetting our history, but an awareness of the messages we send—what we value—is just as important.
frunobulax
Gak Pernah Cukup!
Fair play to Jethro for presenting a different perspective.
No one is going to forget the Civil War, as we seem to still be fighting it.
It's about putting the Southern fighters on a pedestal, so to speak. They were fighting to keep their slaves.
No one is going to forget the Civil War, as we seem to still be fighting it.
It's about putting the Southern fighters on a pedestal, so to speak. They were fighting to keep their slaves.
335clone
Living the dream
I appreciate you posting that, even if I don't necessarily agree. My wife was raised in the south, so I do understand where you are coming from. Many of those statues were erected in the 20's by the 'united daughters of the confederacy' as part of the Jim Crow movement to glorify the confederacy and ensure racial segregation. They were not erected by vote of the citizens or by the state government in most cases. They would be the equivalent of Germans erecting statues of Nazi leaders today. I find them completely inappropriate.
Flamencology
You don't deserve koa.
Nobody is asking for history to be erased. I doubt that there would be much outcry if historical statues were relocated to a museum where their significance could be contextualized in a thoughtful and educational way. But in public squares, they are glorification, plain and simple. One would have to ask 'when and why were these statues made and erected?' 'What was their intent?' These are important questions.
Furthermore, many Southern states have long since lost the moral high ground with respect to historical preservation; look at how the Confederacy is treated in school curriculums, with the persistent arguments of 'states rights', economics, and 'Northern aggression', all of which remain very much present in Southern culture, as evidenced by these very arguments.
Last edited:
iamjethro
BREAUX
Crap, I think I identified myself as supporting some of this stuff. Didn' mean to do so. Totally against supremists. Totally against slavery. Totally against violence as a protest or anywhere else other than defense of self or family in mortal danger.
I just mean condemning southern culture (or rural, which led to a lot of defensive feeling that were voted last election time), in general as opposed to Condemning specific events or people is not conductive to any progress. Again,maybe thin skinnedness on my part. Arkie, rural, southern jokes and stereotypes have long been a thing to deal with. Sometimes people think all southern or rural people are slow dim witted folks who need to be guided into he modern world. Accuracy be danged.
I agree statues or flags or whatever may be better presented in a museum/school setting. I also see that if anyone comes into another persons town and starts telling them what to do or busting down property it might upset the townies. Understanding is not agreeing, by the way. If the town decides to do whatever by thoughtful process, more power to 'em.
Peaceful protest or assembly is guaranteed. Sometimes protestors or counter-protestors forget that. Or didn't want it in the first place. That would be a whole different thread.
I just mean condemning southern culture (or rural, which led to a lot of defensive feeling that were voted last election time), in general as opposed to Condemning specific events or people is not conductive to any progress. Again,maybe thin skinnedness on my part. Arkie, rural, southern jokes and stereotypes have long been a thing to deal with. Sometimes people think all southern or rural people are slow dim witted folks who need to be guided into he modern world. Accuracy be danged.
I agree statues or flags or whatever may be better presented in a museum/school setting. I also see that if anyone comes into another persons town and starts telling them what to do or busting down property it might upset the townies. Understanding is not agreeing, by the way. If the town decides to do whatever by thoughtful process, more power to 'em.
Peaceful protest or assembly is guaranteed. Sometimes protestors or counter-protestors forget that. Or didn't want it in the first place. That would be a whole different thread.
Flamencology
You don't deserve koa.
I disagree with this. There were certainly exceptions, but there was a huge degree of both support and of silent complacency in the rise of the Third Reich and in the expansion of antisemitism.
Johnny N.
Kick Henry Jackassowski
I think you touch on something important here. I grew up in a Southern family and was taught to be proud of that heritage. But what I was taught about being southern was that we were polite to everyone, to address everyone with respect, that we were generally outdoorsmen, that we treat women well, that we are to be generous even if we don't have much, that family was of utmost importance, the church was part of the community and community was also important. Those are the types of values were taught. We weren't taught that we were better because we were white but we were very aware that some were.
But what happens is, everyone gets lumped in with the morons we saw in VA. Another by product of the current divisive mindset of some people. Everyone that even hints that they have an issue with the removal of a statue of someone like Lee is a dissenter. A denier. But I think what gets missed is to those who are proud of being southern for the reasons mentioned above might feel like the act of removing these things is chipping away at their culture. It doesn't mean they support slavery. It doesn't mean they are a racist. And maybe it's not that it ultimately gets removed but that it feels like government came in and did whatever they wanted. It gives the feeling of what's next. So maybe it's not just about the statue. Maybe its about making people feel like they have to be ashamed because they are from the south because slavery.
Necessary disclaimer: This in no way indicates that I condone, support or otherwise accept the actions of any moron from the events in VA or any other like it.
iamjethro
BREAUX
Thank you for clearly saying that which I was not able to articulate. Yes, historically we have people who believe things I do not. But many of us are not the haters of anyone not exactly like us.
Flamencology
You don't deserve koa.
The thing is though, is that the Confederacy was basically let off the hook and, consequently, it has failed to really grapple with its history despite 150+ years. Soldiers, generals, even the highest levels of the Confederate government were either sent completely free and absolved or, in rare instances, given a relatively minor slap on the wrist. Reconstruction was a disaster, and terrorism and legislated discrimination against black Americans in the South persisted for well over a century. Broad racism persists to this very day.
In contrast, if you go to Berlin today, you see reminders of the Holocaust virtually everywhere. The memorials are for those who were victimized, and for those who sacrificed their lives rebelling againt the Third Reich. That's not erasing history, that's being honest about history. Southerners ought to feel shame and embarrassment about their history. That is an unerasable part of Southern culture, and it can never really move forward without genuine truth and reconciliation. From there, they can decide which parts of their culture are worth keeping, and which are worthy of disgust and disownership.
Last edited:
335clone
Living the dream
And obviously the reverse is true, when people come from across the country to tell them not to do what they have decided, and start torch lit protests visually reminiscent of a lynch mob, it's clearly going to rightfully upset the locals, or the country as a whole.
335clone
Living the dream
Legitimate point of view. I would just say it is incumbent upon all good southerners to find more appropriate symbols for expressing pride in their southern heritage than R.E.L. statues or the confederate battle flag. Just sayin'
335clone
Living the dream
Just pointing this out...
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/13/world/american-man-nazi-salute-germany-trnd/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/13/world/american-man-nazi-salute-germany-trnd/index.html
Peen Simmons
Let’s Get Obtuse!
So much of the construction of "Southern heritage" is bound up with early 20th century "new KKK" stuff. Think Birth of a Nation. Which has to do with Jim Crow, freakouts about the New Deal, etc.
I think a museum could contextualize Lee as a person, talk about memory making after the Civil War, the emergence of "lost cause" myth making, and the construction of "Southern memory" via monuments and plantation tours and all that stuff in a thoughtful way.
A context-free triumphalist statue to some Confederate warlord or another plunked in an urban park can't handle this stuff thoughtfully.
History is an argument about the past. You can't erase it even if you decide to respectfully disagree with older bad history that punked monuments to jerks down in the middle of a town.
I think a museum could contextualize Lee as a person, talk about memory making after the Civil War, the emergence of "lost cause" myth making, and the construction of "Southern memory" via monuments and plantation tours and all that stuff in a thoughtful way.
A context-free triumphalist statue to some Confederate warlord or another plunked in an urban park can't handle this stuff thoughtfully.
History is an argument about the past. You can't erase it even if you decide to respectfully disagree with older bad history that punked monuments to jerks down in the middle of a town.