Charlottesville

[Honkridge]

I would just say it is incumbent upon all good southerners to find more appropriate symbols for expressing pride in their southern heritage than R.E.L. statues or the confederate battle flag. Just sayin'

 

[Peen Simmons]

I think you touch on something important here. I grew up in a Southern family and was taught to be proud of that heritage. But what I was taught about being southern was that we were polite to everyone, to address everyone with respect, that we were generally outdoorsmen, that we treat women well, that we are to be generous even if we don't have much, that family was of utmost importance, the church was part of the community and community was also important. Those are the types of values were taught. We weren't taught that we were better because we were white but we were very aware that some were.

But what happens is, everyone gets lumped in with the morons we saw in VA. Another by product of the current divisive mindset of some people. Everyone that even hints that they have an issue with the removal of a statue of someone like Lee is a dissenter. A denier. But I think what gets missed is to those who are proud of being southern for the reasons mentioned above might feel like the act of removing these things is chipping away at their culture. It doesn't mean they support slavery. It doesn't mean they are a racist. And maybe it's not that it ultimately gets removed but that it feels like government came in and did whatever they wanted. It gives the feeling of what's next. So maybe it's not just about the statue. Maybe its about making people feel like they have to be ashamed because they are from the south because slavery.

Necessary disclaimer: This in no way indicates that I condone, support or otherwise accept the actions of any moron from the events in VA or any other like it.

"Southern masculinity" is fraught with all sorts of weird stuff. And a lot of it--even unconsciously--is bound up with slavery, phony baloney chivalry pilfered from Walter Scott and a bunch of paternalist nonsense.

 

[Flamencology]

Plus the fact that the broad acceptance of civility, politesse, feminism (being very kind here), etc., is hardly unique to Southern culture, if indeed it is.

 

[Peen Simmons]

I disagree with this. There were certainly exceptions, but there was a huge degree of both support and of silent complacency in the rise of the Third Reich and in the expansion of antisemitism.

http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=21657

 

[Tig]

The thing is though, is that the Confederacy was basically let off the hook and, consequently, it has failed to really grapple with its history despite 150+ years. Soldiers, generals, even the highest levels of the Confederate government were either sent completely free and absolved or, in rare instances, given a relatively minor slap on the wrist. Reconstruction was a disaster, and terrorism and legislated discrimination against black Americans in the South persisted for well over a century. Broad racism persists to this very day.

In contrast, if you go to Berlin today, you see reminders of the Holocaust virtually everywhere. The memorials are for those who were victimized, and for those who sacrificed their lives rebelling againt the Third Reich. That's not erasing history, that's being honest about history. Southerners ought to feel shame and embarrassment about their history. That is an unerasable part of Southern culture, and it can never really move forward without genuine truth and reconciliation. From there, they can decide which parts of their culture are worth keeping, and which are worthy of disgust and disownership.

I'm ashamed of the way people were treated in the South, but since the majority of the victims and aggressors were dead long before I was born, I will never feel the need to personally have the burden of that shame. Being born in a location does not automatically make someone the owner of that area's past. I don't owe anyone anything other than respect and honesty.

 

[Peen Simmons]

I'm ashamed of the way people were treated in the South, but since all of the victims and aggressors were dead long before I was born, I will never feel the need to personally have the burden of that shame. Being born in a location does not automatically make someone the owner of that area's past. I don't owe anyone anything other than respect and honesty.

Honestly, Doc F was being generous. All Americans should reckon with the shame of slavery.

 

[Peen Simmons]

Podcast episodeabout the history of fried chicken.

Spoiler--they talk about slavery

https://gastropod.com/poultry-power-fried-chicken-chronicles/

 

[Johnny N.]

Southerners ought to feel shame and embarrassment about their history. That is an unerasable part of Southern culture, and it can never really move forward without genuine truth and reconciliation. From there, they can decide which parts of their culture are worth keeping, and which are worthy of disgust and disownership.

Wouldn't that be the same as saying all Germans should be ashamed. Or any other people born in a geographic location that at one time was led by someone who committed heinous acts? Slavery and racism is not exclusive to the Southern States nor is it the only thing that should define a people based on where they grow up. And only nut bags think the Confederacy still exists. I think it is actually ridiculous to suggest that an entire region of people would be defined by events of the past or are responsible in any way.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Honestly, Doc F was being generous. All Americans should reckon with the shame of slavery.

Being a Pacific Northwesterner, I deal more personally with native american genocide and failure to uphold treaties. It was still being fought when I was a kid. I distinctly recall when a local chief of the Puyallup tribe took over a government building after the Boldt fishing rulings. https://www.pugetsound.edu/faculty-pages/dsackman/senior-theses/aubrey-shelton/ Also, Japanese internment camps are a big west coast and intermountain west thing. And slavery too. There is an awful lot for this country not to be too excited about. Shining beacon on the hill that it is.

Point is, a lot of us keep trying to move forward and live up to the ideals we like to espouse but have never achieved. Humans are a distinctly imperfect lot. I think it is safe to say after all of this that American Exceptionalism is dead, at least in terms of how the world views us. Any pride that we continue to carry in that regard here at home should be let go as well. But, I don't feel personally responsible for those sins. I do however have a responsibility not to engage in or put up with race based privilege, gender based privilege, etc., and to become more sensitive as to how I might have some blind spots there.

 

[Flamencology]

Wouldn't that be the same as saying all Germans should be ashamed. Or any other people born in a geographic location that at one time was led by someone who committed heinous acts?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I can assure you that Germany is, as it should be.

And not exclusively by their leadership, but primarily by everyday citizens, by their ancestors, etc.

We've rightly criticized Trump for failing to harshly renounce white supremacists, the KKK, etc., as terrorist scumbags, but people are hypocritical when they fail to apply the same standard to their social and biological ancestry.

 

[DFB]

Honestly, Doc F was being generous. All Americans should reckon with the shame of slavery.

Even the guy from New Delhi that got his citizenship last month?

Shame on his lack of guilt.

 

[Johnny N.]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I can assure you that Germany is, as it should be.

And not exclusively by their leadership, but primarily by everyday citizens, by their ancestors, etc.

We've rightly criticized Trump for failing to harshly renounce white supremacists, the KKK, etc., as terrorist scumbags, but people are hypocritical when they fail to apply the same standard to their social and biological ancestry.

Being critical of historic events and those who committed those acts is quite a bit different than being ashamed to be from a particular region, of a particular race, religion, gender etc. because of those acts committed by others 100 or 1000 years ago. And continuing to try to assign that blame is part of why we can't move forward. Continuing to associate an entire population with the acts of extremists only insures that we continue to be divided. And especially acts that occurred over 100 years ago. Maybe you are making a point that I'm not grasping but in today's climate, casting widespread blame doesn't seem to be working.

 

[Flamencology]

Being critical of historic events and those who committed those acts is quite a bit different than being ashamed to be from a particular region, of a particular race, religion, gender etc. because of those acts committed by others 100 or 1000 years ago. And continuing to try to assign that blame is part of why we can't move forward. Continuing to associate an entire population with the acts of extremists only insures that we continue to be divided. And especially acts that occurred over 100 years ago. Maybe you are making a point that I'm not grasping but in today's climate, casting widespread blame doesn't seem to be working.

Nobody said that someone should be ashamed of being from such-and-such a place.

Nobody is placing blame on living people for the crimes of the past.

The problem is when people don't treat the past in the way that they should.

Stalin's daughter was ashamed of her father, not of being Russian. That isn't unhealthy. Anything else would be denial.

 

[mongooz]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article167303682.html

Monday night, Justin Moore, the Grand Dragon for the Loyal White Knights of Ku Klux Klan, said he was glad Heyer died in the attack.
“I'm sorta glad that them people got hit and I'm glad that girl died,” Moore said in a voicemail to WBTV. “They were a bunch of Communists out there protesting against somebody’s freedom of speech, so it doesn't bother me that they got hurt at all.”

"“We were out there and I seen a lot of Communist flags and anti-fascist and we're going to see more stuff like this,” Moore said. “White people are getting fed up with the double standard setup in America today by the controlled press."

“We should have been able to go out there and have our protest and it should have been peaceful but it's the anti-fascist and the communists...continuing to try and stop us,” he continued. “So I think there will be more violence like this in the future to come.”

“Nothing makes us more proud at the KKK than we see white patriots such as James Fields Jr, age 20, taking his car and running over nine communist anti-fascist, killing one (expletive)-lover named Heather Heyer,” the recorded message says. “James Fields hail victory. It’s men like you that have made the great white race strong and will be strong again.”

 

[Tig]

Something positive.
https://www.lifeafterhate.org/

 

[DFB]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article167303682.html

Monday night, Justin Moore, the Grand Dragon for the Loyal White Knights of Ku Klux Klan, said he was glad Heyer died in the attack.
“I'm sorta glad that them people got hit and I'm glad that girl died,” Moore said in a voicemail to WBTV. “They were a bunch of Communists out there protesting against somebody’s freedom of speech, so it doesn't bother me that they got hurt at all.”

"“We were out there and I seen a lot of Communist flags and anti-fascist and we're going to see more stuff like this,” Moore said. “White people are getting fed up with the double standard setup in America today by the controlled press."

“We should have been able to go out there and have our protest and it should have been peaceful but it's the anti-fascist and the communists...continuing to try and stop us,” he continued. “So I think there will be more violence like this in the future to come.”

“Nothing makes us more proud at the KKK than we see white patriots such as James Fields Jr, age 20, taking his car and running over nine communist anti-fascist, killing one (expletive)-lover named Heather Heyer,” the recorded message says. “James Fields hail victory. It’s men like you that have made the great white race strong and will be strong again.”

Wow. I think I need a shower after reading that.

 

[Chad]

Nobody said that someone should be ashamed of being from such-and-such a place.

Nobody is placing blame on living people for the crimes of the past.

The problem is when people don't treat the past in the way that they should.

Stalin's daughter was ashamed of her father, not of being Russian. That isn't unhealthy. Anything else would be denial.

I think its really just semantics, but I don't feel ashamed of the the history of the south. I only feel ashamed when I do something wrong, or maybe a family member or close friend. But I'm not ashamed when people I don't know do something wrong. Am I disgusted at things people have done in the south? Absolutely. Am I disgusted about the stuff that happened in C'Ville, a place I lived for 5 years, I am. If I found out anyone I considered a friend at some point in my life was there participating in the white national "rally," I would be ashamed that I once considered them a friend.

 

[VoidTerraFirma]

Continuing to associate an entire population with the acts of extremists only insures that we continue to be divided.

This is the sum total of Trump's campaign message and of fascist ideology in general.

 

[jaxn slim]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I can assure you that Germany is, as it should be.

And not exclusively by their leadership, but primarily by everyday citizens, by their ancestors, etc.

We've rightly criticized Trump for failing to harshly renounce white supremacists, the KKK, etc., as terrorist scumbags, but people are hypocritical when they fail to apply the same standard to their social and biological ancestry.

I grew up hating Germans because of what they did to my grandparents, aunt, uncle, etc, but when I visited for the first time I had a huge change of perspective. They own it in a devastatingly real and genuine way. There are no glorious statues of Nazis, but there are museums, memorials, camps, and mandatory inclusion in school curriculum that help ensure everyone acknowledges what happened and how to move forward from there.

 

[jaxn slim]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article167303682.html

Monday night, Justin Moore, the Grand Dragon for the Loyal White Knights of Ku Klux Klan, said he was glad Heyer died in the attack.
“I'm sorta glad that them people got hit and I'm glad that girl died,” Moore said in a voicemail to WBTV. “They were a bunch of Communists out there protesting against somebody’s freedom of speech, so it doesn't bother me that they got hurt at all.”

"“We were out there and I seen a lot of Communist flags and anti-fascist and we're going to see more stuff like this,” Moore said. “White people are getting fed up with the double standard setup in America today by the controlled press."

“We should have been able to go out there and have our protest and it should have been peaceful but it's the anti-fascist and the communists...continuing to try and stop us,” he continued. “So I think there will be more violence like this in the future to come.”

“Nothing makes us more proud at the KKK than we see white patriots such as James Fields Jr, age 20, taking his car and running over nine communist anti-fascist, killing one (expletive)-lover named Heather Heyer,” the recorded message says. “James Fields hail victory. It’s men like you that have made the great white race strong and will be strong again.”

Much like Fox News has labeled as "Intifada" anyone protesting against the white supremacists, the white supremacists seem to really like to call them communists. Identity politics are interesting.