Charlottesville

[Johnny N.]

This is the sum total of Trump's campaign message and of fascist ideology in general.

It seems to me it was the anti-Trump campaign message. As in we can't blame all Muslims or people who look like Muslims for the acts of the extremists. But it applies across the board. The concept itself isn't new obviously, we have had the apple analogy for years. But now the "in" thing to do is to apply it whenever it fits your agenda.

 

[GDSmithTX]

Because my 15 year old is on summer break and generally playing on Xbox Live with his friends the whole damned day, he didn't know what had happened in Charlottesville beyond the very barest sketchy strokes. He knew there was a protest over the weekend (he didn't know over what, who was involved or even where) and that something had happened and some people were upset about it. That was the extent of his knowledge.

So last night after dinner, I explained what had gone on and showed him some video and images of the hatred on brazen display, which visibly upset him.*

I reminded him of the morning after the election when I woke him up 2 hrs early, made us both a big breakfast. That morning before school, while we ate, I explained to him what had happened, and what it could mean for the country. And I also told him about the type of people who would likely be emboldened by the election results.

"This stuff," I said last night "is exactly what I was talking about that morning, buddy. I'm sorry and frankly ashamed to show you this, because what happened was shameful and a tragedy. But this is what we have to be on the lookout for. If you see anything like that going on, even if it's just one or two people -- even if it's one of your friends doing it -- you have to tell someone. It can be me, a teacher, a principal, a security guard, a police officer, a manager .... but it has to be somebody. Because this type of hatred has to be opposed, every single time. Because every time it isn't opposed, it wins a small victory."

And that's how you get what happened in Charlottesville: people didn't speak up when they saw hatred large and small. And like toxic mold, it grows and grows in the darkness, until it bursts forth in all its repugnant ugliness.

It was another in a too-long string of unpleasant teachable moments I've had to have with him over the past couple of years.

I really prefer the other kind.

(* He's a very good kid who wears his reactions on his sleeve. When we watched Blazing Saddles, I warned him it featured salty racial language ... but the first time the N-word was said, his eyes got big and he had a shocked look.)

 

[Danhedonia]

Much like Fox News has labeled as "Intifada" anyone protesting against the white supremacists, the white supremacists seem to really like to call them communists. Identity politics are interesting.

You used the phrase "identity politics." Now you're on a list.

 

[iamjethro]

And obviously the reverse is true, when people come from across the country to tell them not to do what they have decided, and start torch lit protests visually reminiscent of a lynch mob, it's clearly going to rightfully upset the locals, or the country as a whole.

AS it should, Amen.

 

[jaxn slim]

You used the phrase "identity politics." Now you're on a list.

Another one? Dammit.

 

[Tig]

You used the phrase "identity politics." Now you're on a list.

 

[bsman]

This was a disturbing article:

Could America Be Headed for Another Civil War?

 

[Flamencology]

I also see that if anyone comes into another persons town and starts telling them what to do or busting down property it might upset the townies. Understanding is not agreeing, by the way. If the town decides to do whatever by thoughtful process, more power to 'em.

There's truth in that, but it's oversimplification. Upsetting the locals is insignificant compared to protesting for social justice and being on the right side of history.

Nobody with decency would criticize the Freedom Riders, the Selma to Montgomery marches, the March on Washington, etc., least not for hurting the feelings of racists.

In a more perfect union, it would go without saying that one major difference here (beyond being just or unjust in cause) is that when you show up at a political event with rifles, that's not protest, that's terrorism. Which is exactly what the Civil War was, what Jim Crow was, etc.

 

[iamjethro]

I am truly impressed and loving the civil discourse in this thread at this point. No yelling. No name calling. Nothing to try to inflame.

This is what a protest or a community meeting or whatever should be. I do not have to bring down another to build myself up.

The answer is obviously to be proud of where you are from regardless, but to not think it sets you apart or gives you privileges you do not earn by hard work and attitude. If any of you Northern Goomers are in the area I will gladly buy you some catfish or grits or cathead biscuits with molasses if you wish. chears

All people think "the others" don't see things the same way "we" do. But there is more to bind us than hinder us if we so choose to make use of it

 

[bsman]

All people think "the others" don't see things the same way "we" do. But there is more to bind us than hinder us if we so choose to make use of it

I don't really think this is a "Yankee vs Rebel" or even a "White vs Non-white" (whatever those terms even mean) issue. I think to me, it is more an "Us vs Them" issue, with the "us" and the "them" defined in a million different ways. And, I think that's the problem -- there is a lot of pent-up frustration, rage, and feelings of disenfranchisement in this country that are being constantly fed by the needs of a media industry with a thirst for 24-hour continual content to sell sponsorships and a fractured government that have totally forgotten how to disagree without being disagreeable.

 

[Flamencology]

I don't really think this is a "Yankee vs Rebel" or even a "White vs Non-white" (whatever those terms even mean) issue. I think to me, it is more an "Us vs Them" issue, with the "us" and the "them" defined in a million different ways. And, I think that's the problem -- there is a lot of pent-up frustration, rage, and feelings of disenfranchisement in this country that are being constantly fed by the needs of a media industry with a thirst for 24-hour continual content to sell sponsorships and a fractured government that have totally forgotten how to disagree without being disagreeable.

That is a legitimate problem, I've argued before that cable news is unhealthy.

But at a certain point, on certain issues, agreeing to disagree just isn't good enough. Non-violent battles really do need to be fought hard and to the bitter end, even if it leaves some people embittered. History will judge this era harshly, and this is yet another time example of when future grandchildren will (or should) be ashamed of their grandparents.

 

[iamjethro]

Sometimes I think that even if the human race intermingled by marriage and babies born to the point that in society there was no way to differentiate by "race", we would invent some other reason to say one of us was better than another. Toenail length or whatnot.

Or maybe those sub-human beings that prefer tortoise shell pickguards.

 

[Flamencology]

Sometimes I think that even if the human race intermingled by marriage and babies born to the point that in society there was no way to differentiate by "race", we would invent some other reason to say one of us was better than another. Toenail length or whatnot.

Or maybe those sub-human beings that prefer tortoise shell pickguards.

KETCHUP IS WRONG!

But you don't need to look too far back in American history to see evidence of your thesis.

See: treatment of Irish, Italian, Polish, Catholic, etc., immigrants.

 

[iamjethro]

But, things do progress. Maybe not at the pace we wish, but forward nonetheless.

My grandfather used the "N" word often. Never in malice that I recall, but simply as a descriptor. "That N------ carpenter sure did some nice work on this house",etc. Language he learned from his father and grandfather, to be sure. My parents were educators and knew or learned a different perspective of differing races. MY generation was better integrated in schools and society. Our friends (not just acquaintances) crossed more lines to be sure. My son, now in college, doesn't even comprehend how that type of bigotry should be part of a conversation. There is hope out there. That is what should fill up news channel coverage. Won't drive the ratings, tho.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

I am truly impressed and loving the civil discourse in this thread at this point. No yelling. No name calling. Nothing to try to inflame.

This is what a protest or a community meeting or whatever should be. I do not have to bring down another to build myself up.

The answer is obviously to be proud of where you are from regardless, but to not think it sets you apart or gives you privileges you do not earn by hard work and attitude. If any of you Northern Goomers are in the area I will gladly buy you some catfish or grits or cathead biscuits with molasses if you wish. chears

All people think "the others" don't see things the same way "we" do. But there is more to bind us than hinder us if we so choose to make use of it

It IS nice. And if you come to the Pacific Northwest, even to Idaho (because salmon still swim there) I will gladly put some salmon on the grill and crack open a PNW style IPA! Any of you other lot too. Or good dark coffee or some tea if you don't do beer. Howie, you might have to stick to beer. My coffee is over-roasted for your taste. I can get a local beer that is not an IPA/APA as I know that is not your thing.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Sometimes I think that even if the human race intermingled by marriage and babies born to the point that in society there was no way to differentiate by "race", we would invent some other reason to say one of us was better than another. Toenail length or whatnot.

Or maybe those sub-human beings that prefer tortoise shell pickguards.

Stars upon thars.

@Flamencology makes a good point about getting beyond agreeing to disagree. At our local Indivisible meeting the other night, we were talking about how the Dems have not addressed matters. Matters that need to be addressed and hashed out now so that the party can move forward with better effectiveness. Wounds have been opened that have not been addressed. If we could move beyond parties altogether I would love that, but I don't see it happening any time soon. In so many other areas and groups and the nation as a whole as well.

So, like a family that has had issues, just being polite on holidays does not get it done. At some point, it needs to be hashed out. And if Aunt Sue gets upset, well, hopefully she will come around. If not, it had to happen anyway.

 

[iamjethro]

Stars upon thars.

"The best Sneetches on the beaches."
My favorite author. Green Eggs and Ham was the first book I owned. And still my most treasured to this day.

 

[rhino]

But, things do progress. Maybe not at the pace we wish, but forward nonetheless.

My grandfather used the "N" word often. Never in malice that I recall, but simply as a descriptor. "That N------ carpenter sure did some nice work on this house",etc. Language he learned from his father and grandfather, to be sure. My parents were educators and knew or learned a different perspective of differing races. MY generation was better integrated in schools and society. Our friends (not just acquaintances) crossed more lines to be sure. My son, now in college, doesn't even comprehend how that type of bigotry should be part of a conversation. There is hope out there. That is what should fill up news channel coverage. Won't drive the ratings, tho.

My experience is similar. Sadly that doesn't happen for every family.

Working in construction again, it's appalling how often other folks on job sites assume that sort of language is ok and that mentality is shared by everyone else. Fortunately for me, I'm a super intendant and can speak my mind and they have to listen.

Usually saying something one time cuts that shit out pretty quickly. I've only had one instance where I had to run somebody off, but I'd gladly do it again.

 

[mongooz]

Or maybe those sub-human beings that prefer tortoise shell pickguards.

WHOOOAAAA there lester........now yer crossing a line. leave the (plastic) tort guards alone. they don't go well on some things, but they go well on other, and i'll post a pic of my strat if you don't believe me cop0

 

[sunvalleylaw]

"The best Sneetches on the beaches."
My favorite author. Green Eggs and Ham was the first book I owned. And still my most treasured to this day.

I just noticed the Tort remark. See profile pic to the left. Them's fightin' words, and as fight'n words are not protected speech. :madpoke: ***








*** Said tongue in cheek, not really. I think the doctrine and line of cases is nearly dead.