OMG Politics, I'm over it already.
- Thread starter sunvalleylaw
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OGG
Master of the Meh
Once again, I agree completely. I think you think I'm arguing... I think.
Just expounding is all.
I have the conversation about the stupid F-350s and C3500 pick ups that are like fleas on a dog around here. It seems to be a hugely popular choice for people that either don't need them at all, or only need them for specific functions. Unfortunately, you see them all over town with only the driver and an empty bed. Maybe a sack of groceries on the passenger seat.
I don't get that at all. If you can afford a $50+K truck to haul your horse trailer or your 5th wheel or your desert toys, you can drop a couple grand on an old beater Honda to take down to the post office for stamps. FFS.
I do differ a bit on the market thing. Demand drives supply. It's not the car makers telling us what we want, it's us telling them via our pocket books what we want to buy. The sensibility and civic duty part of the equation is an individual point of view with opinions that vary dramatically. I might think it's stupid, maybe irresponsible, but if it isn't illegal, I tend to not get emotionally invested in it. I also don't begrudge people liking or wanting high ticket items. It's their money. Sure, that Porsche Panamera Turbo S is an almost guaranteed badge of honor for a complete Douchebag, but it isn't hurting me that some asshole dropped $125K on an ugly turd that can't decide if it's a race car or a station wagon. If anything, it gives me a chuckle.
mongooz
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see....i disagree on the 'not the carmakers telling us what we want'......they absolutely are doing just that. they would much rather sell a million $60,000 4wd monster trucks than make 10 million econo boxes. and if you really watch tv (not cable) you would certainly notice what's being marketed, especially during sports shows and 'guy' shows. they aren't marketing priuses.....they're marketing F-350 4 door dually 4wd beasts. (chevy and dodge too)
that's on the makers.
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
See my edit to fiscal responsibility comment above.
And whether or not the car makers are advertising more heavily the big stuff (and I agree that they are), I believe we as individuals need to make better choices, and consider the external costs of our decisions. I am not saying no one can have fun and go hunting, camping, boating, etc. Just travel on a daily basis in the least impactful way. Though it is individual choice, I think we ought to consider the long run impact on our environment as much as we can. As @OGG said, take the small car to go get groceries. Or grab the panniers and take the bike. I like to do that and get a little extra exercise. Maybe not even every trip. Just more trips. And regarding the Colorado Caddilacs, (luxury trucks for groceries), just because the carnival barker is telling you to buy that neat new set of knives at the fair doesn't mean you need to buy them. But I also think the car manufacturers need to do better in terms of promoting and offering more economical models. Despite the fact that Tesla's first cars are luxury items, (the more budget ones are on the way) I think his efforts, and the efforts of ford (C-Max), Toyota (Prius), Chevy (Volt), etc. will drive more such options on the market. Now, if we can get some models with more hauling room. Either make the mini-vans cooler and more fuel efficient, or bring back the sportwagons.
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mongooz
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it's too late at night and i'm too tired to go looking for it.
well and there might be some adult beverages involved there too.......
OGG
Master of the Meh
Hmm. Yes, they are marketing the buhgeezis out of those things, but that's because they're competing with each other. They aren't creating the demand so much as they are responding to the whims of the consumers. Do they occasionally drive trends? Sure, but car makers hate risks. They aren't going to offer what the public "needs", or what you or I think is responsible. They offer what the market tells them to. Nissan just jumped even further into the full size pick up market with an HD version of the Titan. They spent a fortune on design, engineering, and facilities/tooling just to do so. They didn't do it because they somehow think they are going to convince anyone who isn't shopping for such a vehicle that they should be, they did it to compete in huge chunk of a market where they had no presence.
Lots of things drive consumer trends, marketing is more about capitalizing on them than in trying to create them with very few exceptions. It's the entertainment industry and the like that has the real influence over what is trendy. Nobody really wanted an Escalade until they started appearing in music videos. GM only built the stupid thing in small numbers for a niche market of Cadillac buyers looking for an SUV. Next thing ya know, everybody wants one. So the other makers respond with crap like the Lincoln Navigator and worse... the Blackwood. Remember that flaming turdcicle?
Eventually trends come to an end and cycles repeat. Right now, there's a large market for stupid cars. But it is slowly turning the other way again. Ten years ago, everybody just had to have a fucking Hummer. Now you can't even buy one. They are a footnote in history.
Sooner or later, a fresh cycle of wildly efficient economy cars will captivate the people and the trend will be thusly skewed.
There's also a finite "shelf life" for the marketplace of giant guzzlers. With new, tighter emissions and mileage restrictions coming down the line incrementally over the next several years, some of these vehicles will have no choice but to go extinct.
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
I just said: "I view this [fiscal responsibility] often as a different consideration than good policy, and what is better to spend money on." Which in my mind related to your comment about spending money on developing fusion rather than war.
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
Not perfect, but it is starting.
High end model attracting the interest.
Crossover that will pull a camper
Lower price point model.
I had hoped that VW would be part of the transitional strategy away from fossil fuels with more and improved TDI models. I like my Passat TDI, and it is fuel efficient. Too bad they screwed the pooch. It would be nice if they could recover.
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mongooz
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18 billion dollar pay back.....yea...confidence recovery not likely.....for some time. and they're just the ones that got caught!!
i think one of the biggest mistakes has been defunding NASA. the things that we have learned about not only space travel, but the power production in space really is WHERE the hybrid technology came from. virtually ending NASA's R&D has shackled us with oil fuels forever.
Kerouac
weird musical dildo
"Even if a topic was trending on a site like Breitbart, The Daily Caller or The Washington Examiner, the employees, who were considered outside contractors, were told to only promote a story to the trending topics section if it was on a mainstream site such the New York Times or CNN."
I think Trending News should definitely fall under the category of topics on actual NEWS sites.
335clone
Living the dream
Don't discount the environmental impact of the by products of battery technology. I'm all for more and better EV's, but consider this...
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hold-smugness-tesla-might-just-worse-environment-know/
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
Yeah, I get that. But all industries have to get started somehow, and certainly are not perfect at first. I believe battery technology will come along and help improve that.
as the author says as part of his conclusion:
Some of you have probably concluded that I hate EVs and don’t think anyone should buy them. That’s not the case. I believe electric vehicles – in one form or another – are likely the future of personal transportation.
Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/h...ht-just-worse-environment-know/#ixzz48DpjtDPM
Follow us: @digitaltrends on Twitter | digitaltrendsftw on Facebook
the trick is to get there somehow. Someone had to be Elon and get it going.
335clone
Living the dream
I agree with you, but when production gets outsourced to the third world (not Tesla per se), environmental regulations get forgotten along the way. As long as the batteries are cheap (they are not) people don't care how the Chinese make them. And then they have to be disposed of when they die. One solution brings a whole new set of problems, and I don't think that a lot of the people buying electric vehicles are aware of them.
mongooz
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FIFY.
and there in lies the biggest problem. NOT the USA, but all the third world countries. unfortunately, they have followed the US's early industrial revolution business model.....PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT (screw the byproducts) and we're seeing their negative impact on the global environment. compared to china and asia, the USA is surgically clean.
wagdog
Ack
Holy crap I want that!
VoidTerraFirma
Live to wine
Humanity in its current incarnation is doomed. Forget the future and indulge your vices.
There is compelling evidence that this is the optimal course of action.
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
Humanity in its current incarnation is doomed. Forget the future and indulge your vices.
You guys might be joking. Might not. I don't know. but I think there are people out there that share that view in reaction to the media beat down concerning global warming, doom any day now, etc.
Nothing personal to you guys, but it bothers me. A more measured analysis by scientists ( @Tiltsta ?) would hopefully provide a more balanced response to the risks, rather than a fatalistic, cast our collective fate to the winds point of view.
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