Joe Satriani... I don't get it....

[OGG]

i'm a terrible technician but i get where he's going with things. one of my friends is an absolutely phenomenal musician and he broke down some of Johnson's playing (i forget the song) to show me that the solo was all pentatonic, but because of his picking technique and note choice, it sounds nothing like it. pentatonics from Neptune.

So, essentially, he's like BB King after chugging a keg of Red Bull... I get it.

 

[Help!I'maRock!]

So, essentially, he's like BB King after chugging a keg of Red Bull... I get it.

it was really all about hybrid picking and string skipping. so the shred techniques were there, but comes from a totally different place. it was actually very cool.

 

[Mark Wein]

That's one of those things that YOU might not think is too cool, but I guarantee CHICKS will think it's cool.....

Actually I've always thought it was fun to play but it's not something I can dedicate my practice time to enough to actually master. Since the kids want to do it (my 7pm kids class decided it would be their December project) I'll probably have it all learned by New Years Eve

So, since we were on the subject, I just watched this video of Eric Johnson doing "Cliffs" way back in 88. I never paid much attention to any of these guys, and I've heard that song a gazillion times. I actually was quite shocked by this video. Not only does it kick all kinds of ass, but I noticed something that gave me some hope as a player...

The faster he plays, the less he uses his pinky. In fact, when he is going full tilt boogie, he doesn't use it at all. Doesn't this contradict the strict "Shredder Code"? I mean, would that not be considered a fundamental failure in terms of proper technique?

I know my real heroes (Gilmour, Clapton, etc...) are the same way, but they aren't shredders, so it's ok.

So, watch this, and school me. Am I understanding this correctly?

I think good players all have the ability to use their pinky, but I know that when I started playing really wide stretches like 3 note per string pentatonic scales my reach and strength in the first three fingers was enough that I used them for a lot of the faster things too. You just get used to your hand being that way. When I start playing 3 note per string diatonic scales like Major and Minor scales I go back to using the pinky more because it all lays out more effectively that way.

 

[OGG]

OK, thanks to Mark and Howie I think I pretty much understand. It was just striking for me to see someone play that fast without using what I've always considered to be widely accepted as "proper" technique. I think Gary Moore is similar in that regard as well no?

For me, not using my pinky isn't so much a matter of not wanting to play properly as it is the fact that it's nearly impossible for me to do. After I shattered my hands when I was 13, the pinky on my left finger has a significant cant towards the ring finger and is in fact, bent. The tendons or ligaments or whatever is in there actually pull it more so, the farther I try to stretch it outwards/away from the rest of my fingers (Maybe tomorrow I'll take a picture and show you what I mean). The result, is that I go out of my way to NOT use it, as, unless it's a close ratio chord shape, it won't go where it needs to go.

Bottom line though, is that I was encouraged by this development. It made me realize that even without using it, it is physically possible to play like he does... which is something I find myself being more and more interested in the longer I hang around this place.

As I've mentioned before, this forum has really and truly benefited me as a player, it has challenged me to tread into territory that I never would have otherwise and I've been blown away to realize the things I wound up being capable of, that I assumed I never would be.

So, now, I'm going to watch that video about a million more times and start seeing how much of that stuff I can actually pull off on my own.

Thanks guys!

 

[sunvalleylaw]

I kinda sorta get it. And I would rather listen to Satch than Vai. But I like more accessible melodies generally speaking. But I would usually rather put on something by the Clash or Wilco, or any number of others, than either of these guys. So I guess I really just don't "get it". Personal preference thing.

 

[mystixboi1]

i dunno. maybe everybody, even Eric Johnson, goes on autopilot and tries to do their best Clapton when shit gets difficult.

Actually, I remember watching one of his earlier instructional videos. he actually admitted that over 90% of what he plays are just major, minor and penatonic stuff.

i was shocked to see this... i was even more shocked to see his awesome note selection and picking technique

 

[mosiddiqi]

Eric Johnson does a lot of wide interval playing within a pentatonic framework..rather than the stock licks we'd recognise. he also makes more use of some of the less used "box" positions for the pentatonic..

 

[Help!I'maRock!]

Actually, I remember watching one of his earlier instructional videos. he actually admitted that over 90% of what he plays are just major, minor and penatonic stuff.

i was shocked to see this... i was even more shocked to see his awesome note selection and picking technique

the Clapton reference was more about his 3 finger playing style than anything else. i agree with Mo, that it's all about note selection. yeah, they're pentatonics, but not like you and i think of them.

 

[paulskirocks]

Actually, watch Paul Gilbert, and you will see he only uses his pinky if he has to... Personally, I've never done that, and use my pinky constantly... It was even something I noticed on Mo's videos, that he shreds without using the pinky, except if there is no other option...

So, in the last week, I've been attempting to not use the pinky, and I'm finding that as I get better, it just means that my pinky is available for a long spread...

 

[reverend1]

Actually, watch Paul Gilbert, and you will see he only uses his pinky if he has to... Personally, I've never done that, and use my pinky constantly... It was even something I noticed on Mo's videos, that he shreds without using the pinky, except if there is no other option...

So, in the last week, I've been attempting to not use the pinky, and I'm finding that as I get better, it just means that my pinky is available for a long spread...

I always use my pinky. I always wondered why some don't.

 

[mosiddiqi]

Actually, watch Paul Gilbert, and you will see he only uses his pinky if he has to... Personally, I've never done that, and use my pinky constantly... It was even something I noticed on Mo's videos, that he shreds without using the pinky, except if there is no other option...

So, in the last week, I've been attempting to not use the pinky, and I'm finding that as I get better, it just means that my pinky is available for a long spread...

I think I stick to the "one finger per fret" rule, apart from on classic rock/blues licks where I learned them from Page, Schenker, those guys, who if they were playing a lick in A say at the fifth fret "box"..they'd often use their ring finger for the 8th fret notes..so I usually do the same. I don't really think about it anymore..whatever it takes.

 

[paulskirocks]

I think I stick to the "one finger per fret" rule, apart from on classic rock/blues licks where I learned them from Page, Schenker, those guys, who if they were playing a lick in A say at the fifth fret "box"..they'd often use their ring finger for the 8th fret notes..so I usually do the same. I don't really think about it anymore..whatever it takes.

Mo, go watch your video, and you will see yourself jamming over a 4 fret span (such as 5th thru 8th) only using your first three fingers...

 

[Psychotronic]

Screw it, use whatever finger you like. If you don't use your pinky, so what? If you play how you want and achieve the things you want on the guitar, I don't care what finger you use.

One of the things I do nowadays (since I don't really "practice" anymore), is use whatever finger works for that particular lick or pattern. Jeez, half the time I slur every note with just my index and pinky in a semi-tight sort of fist. Really, it's sheer laziness on my part, but I can do a lot with it. And, it's really useful for playing live because I tend to NOT do the "correct" thumb-in-the middle-of-the neck thing.

 

[Mark Wein]

Screw it, use whatever finger you like. If you don't use your pinky, so what? If you play how you want and achieve the things you want on the guitar, I don't care what finger you use.

One of the things I do nowadays (since I don't really "practice" anymore), is use whatever finger works for that particular lick or pattern. Jeez, half the time I slur every note with just my index and pinky in a semi-tight sort of fist. Really, it's sheer laziness on my part, but I can do a lot with it. And, it's really useful for playing live because I tend to NOT do the "correct" thumb-in-the middle-of-the neck thing.

I think that I spend quite a bit of time making my students play with specific fingers when they are getting started to help them develop good enough technique to play. It's amazing what some folks will try and do if you don't give them a little guidance and show them more efficient ways of playing.


The other end of the scale is that the listener can't hear what fingers you are playing if you are making sense musically. To me teaching technique is important because it literally shaves years off of an average students development but if I have a student who can already play musically with whatever he is doing I don't worry about it. And sometimes the only way to get something out of your hands is to throw "technique" out the window.

 

[baimun]

Regardless of which guy's style floats your boat (Satriani, Vai, E. Johnson, P. Gilbert)....




.... all of these guys have mastery over their instrument that is almost unreal. They've forgotten more stuff than most of us will learn in our lifetimes.... and I would venture a guess that if all four were put in a room and people started calling out musicians and styles, they could probably play snippets that would melt our brains.

Each of them have digested music from all these great sources (Hendrix being a common denominator) and each have come out with a unique, identifyable voice. That really says something to me in a landscape full of sound-alike guitarists.

 

[Psychotronic]

I think that I spend quite a bit of time making my students play with specific fingers when they are getting started to help them develop good enough technique to play. It's amazing what some folks will try and do if you don't give them a little guidance and show them more efficient ways of playing.


The other end of the scale is that the listener can't hear what fingers you are playing if you are making sense musically. To me teaching technique is important because it literally shaves years off of an average students development but if I have a student who can already play musically with whatever he is doing I don't worry about it. And sometimes the only way to get something out of your hands is to throw "technique" out the window.

Yes, and -- to be clear -- I spent YEARS learning and playing with "proper technique", which I believe helped my playing immensely. It's just not that important to me to play like that ALL THE TIME. If I can do the same thing with less effort, I do it.

Obviously the point is to play musically. How you get there and what techniques you employ are up to you, and learning how to play properly before you change your rules is important.

 

[Kerouac]

I think that I spend quite a bit of time making my students play with specific fingers when they are getting started to help them develop good enough technique to play. It's amazing what some folks will try and do if you don't give them a little guidance and show them more efficient ways of playing.


The other end of the scale is that the listener can't hear what fingers you are playing if you are making sense musically. To me teaching technique is important because it literally shaves years off of an average students development but if I have a student who can already play musically with whatever he is doing I don't worry about it. And sometimes the only way to get something out of your hands is to throw "technique" out the window.

This. One of the first things we work on is a One Finger Per Fret exercise so they have to use each finger a little. The earlier I can get them comfortable using their weaker fingers the easier it is to convince them to not only finger chords and licks in a logical way, but it seems to clean up their technique as a whole. My "Cliffs of Dover" student had three teachers before me who just had him play scales and learn Jimmy Page licks since he's a big Zep fan. He's got a lot of speed, but it's really sloppy. Before "Cliffs" he wanted to do Suzie-Q by CCR and he was able to nail the notes in the first lesson. It took three weeks to get the phrasing right, the tempo right, and not bend sharp.

 

[Mark Wein]

Yes, and -- to be clear -- I spent YEARS learning and playing with "proper technique", which I believe helped my playing immensely. It's just not that important to me to play like that ALL THE TIME. If I can do the same thing with less effort, I do it.

Obviously the point is to play musically. How you get there and what techniques you employ are up to you, and learning how to play properly before you change your rules is important.

Absolutely. And anyone who takes lessons with me in person knows that I've been obsessing over my pick hand technique over the last couple of years. How I want to play changes quite often so I'm always trying to improve my technique but I personally try to be as realistic as I can be about what I'm doing.

 

[Kerouac]

OK, thanks to Mark and Howie I think I pretty much understand. It was just striking for me to see someone play that fast without using what I've always considered to be widely accepted as "proper" technique. I think Gary Moore is similar in that regard as well no?

For me, not using my pinky isn't so much a matter of not wanting to play properly as it is the fact that it's nearly impossible for me to do. After I shattered my hands when I was 13, the pinky on my left finger has a significant cant towards the ring finger and is in fact, bent. The tendons or ligaments or whatever is in there actually pull it more so, the farther I try to stretch it outwards/away from the rest of my fingers (Maybe tomorrow I'll take a picture and show you what I mean). The result, is that I go out of my way to NOT use it, as, unless it's a close ratio chord shape, it won't go where it needs to go.

Bottom line though, is that I was encouraged by this development. It made me realize that even without using it, it is physically possible to play like he does... which is something I find myself being more and more interested in the longer I hang around this place.

As I've mentioned before, this forum has really and truly benefited me as a player, it has challenged me to tread into territory that I never would have otherwise and I've been blown away to realize the things I wound up being capable of, that I assumed I never would be.

So, now, I'm going to watch that video about a million more times and start seeing how much of that stuff I can actually pull off on my own.

Thanks guys!

I can pick very cleanly at high tempos. But because of my craptastic joint development from the juvenile arthritis (my pink is actually bent too! ) it's very difficult for me to play fast leads or certain chord voicings when I was taking jazz lessons. One way I worked around this was incorporating a lot of slides in my playing, especially against open strings, and if I do have to play a fast passage I try to play it linearly instead of crossing strings. And lotsa trem picking.

 

[cuffdc]

The other end of the scale is that the listener can't hear what fingers you are playing if you are making sense musically.

I think you just committed TGP heresy. You need to understand that the angle of the finger and the difference of thickness of the bones relative to pinkie and ring fingers creates a significant shift in the bloom of your tone. And don't get me started on which material your wedding ring should be made of, should you insist on ruining your tone by wearing one.