Question: Do you foresee a time when saxophone becomes common again in popular music?

335clone said:
So in your world, NWA was pop?

I don't think so.
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Straight Outta Compton went 3x platinum. And peaked at #4 on the billboard charts. And rap has been pretty important to pop from that time to now.

NWA are not the only ones who talked about the police either. You also had Tupac in the nineties as one of many examples. A guy with about a half dozen albums that went 4x platinum. And continues up to now with recent artists like Kendrick Lamar. A guy who has three multi-platinum albums and considered one of the biggest names in hip hop.

Non-rap artists have done pop songs about police brutality, too.



 
rickenvox said:
you just killed your own point, read the definition after popular - has nothing to do with popular (strong beat, etc.). The word pop as it applies to music has all kinds of implicatures. Language isn't as simple as you'd like it to be. And it says the term "popular music" mean all music that is popular, unlike the term "pop music".
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Bravo. I wasn't expecting you to read them. I will counter your point later with more exciting references.

It's basically popular music that started in the fifties with catchy, easy to remember beats.

Also, I forgot to circle the part about Pop music and Popular music terms being interchangeable. Fuck!
 
Bones McHorror said:
You really haven't paid attention to pop music at any time in your life from any era over the past like 70 years? And had to read the wiki? To me those descriptions are terrible and based on rock critics condescending opinions of pop. Where they consider rock to be the norm and pop to be a censored version of rock. Which makes no sense in context to how pop works. It's also untrue that pop is more conservative than rock (I checked the quote and it was from a book published in 2001, btw). Since most rock bands sound almost the exact same as they did like 25 years ago. Sometimes like they did 40 or 50 years ago. While pop is constantly changing and incorporating new things into production and composition.

Pop has always on the avant garde in talking about/doing things that people the general public uncomfortable. Along with film, another expensive endeavor people associate with 'commercialism', it's a big way that a lot of things come into popular culture in America. For instance, sending black artists into white homes was considered subversive. White guys like Elvis 'trying to be black' was subversive. You have songs about drug use and murder. You have songs about fucking using thinly veiled metaphor. You civil rights anthems and anti-war songs. You have John Lennon saying he is bigger than Jesus. You have the Stones hiring the Hell's Angels and writing about the devil. You have openly gay artists and androgyny. You have Prince being Prince (even had an album called Controversy with a song called Jack U Off). You have rap artists saying fuck the police. You have Madonna doing third wave feminism and using BSDM imagery. Many rockers here missed out on disco. But did you know that discos were constantly raided by the police? If you're white male and straight no big deal, though straights did get offended by it and burn their records, but it was a rebellion for gay men, women, and many african americans.

Today almost every pop artist is fairly political and not even just centrist but fairly left of center. Ariana Grande supports Bernie Sanders. Dua Lipa supports Jeremy Corbyn in the UK. Camila Cabello and Beyonce talk about black lives matter. Rihanna turned down the super bowl in solidarity with Colin Kaepernick. You have trans or genderfluid artists like Kim Petras, Poppy, Janelle Monae, Sam Smith, and Christine and the Queens right now. Even Taylor Swift just made a documentary about how she had to stop being politically neutral in today's political climate. Conservative twitter right now is still freaking out over J-Lo and Shakira at the Super Bowl. The idea that pop is some neutered version of rock is just wrong. Pop musicians seem to be even more likely to express opinions that will alienate some of their audience than rock musicians. They are more likely to have concept-based albums than rock, too, nowadays. A lot of pop is based around a concept for an entire album cycle similar to how the Beatles/Bowie/Prince worked. While rock is often just the same formula over and over and there is no expectation of doing anything new or big. It's kind of rehashing rock's past glory.

Hell, the reason why country music exists is because black people, uppity women, gays, trans folks, etc. are scary to people in the South. And therefore they need a safe space from pop music proper. But even country is now too weak to hold the status quo. A lot of the women are expressing more liberal views in songs/videos. And Lil Nas X took over their charts for a long time.

The idea of 'controversy' is a staple of pop. It's not guaranteed, as 'being edgy' is kind of a red-herring as a delineation between it and other genres, but controversy sells.
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Were the Monroe’s or the Carter family pop? Your long post has done nothing to offer a definition.


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Bones McHorror said:
Straight Outta Compton went 3x platinum. And peaked at #4 on the billboard charts. And rap has been pretty important to pop from that time to now.

NWA are not the only ones who talked about the police either. You also had Tupac in the nineties as one of many examples. A guy with about a half dozen albums that went 4x platinum. And continues up to now with recent artists like Kendrick Lamar. A guy who has three multi-platinum albums and considered one of the biggest names in hip hop.

Non-rap artists have done pop songs about police brutality, too.



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NWA was pop according to Bones. I think you’re just calling everything black, that isn’t jazz or classical, pop.


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Fellas...fellas, it's all good. We're getting semantic about semantics. Here's the definitive definition of "pop" as it relates to music:



...it's coming...



...you may or may not be familiar w/ it...



...there's a chance that you know...



...know that I'm talkin' 'bout...


 
rickenvox said:
NWA was pop according to Bones. I think you’re just calling everything black, that isn’t jazz or classical, pop.


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Straight Outta Compton is a mainstream album if it sold over 3 and half million copies. And had that much influence on music and culture. It has a movie named after it and a place in the library of congress. And today people have no problem considering hip hop to be pop. So really no reason to exclude it other than bias against pop music that claims being 'inoffensive' (ie not scaring white-y) is what makes something pop.

A big part of that album I think is deferring to pop music. I mean it uses samples from earlier pop artists. I think many here want to believe it is some rap equivalent of indie music. But I don't think they thought of it that way. Ice Cube and Dr. Dre went on to become hugely successful in the pop world. You couldn't turn on MTV without seeing them for a long time. Especially Dr. Dre who is like a billionaire now (related to Beats headphones, I guess?). You can tell he has huge ambition commercially probably to a fault.
 
Bones McHorror said:
Straight Outta Compton is a mainstream album if it sold over 3 and half million copies. And had that much influence on music and culture. It has a movie named after it and a place in the library of congress. And today people have no problem considering hip hop to be pop. So really no reason to exclude it other than bias against pop music that claims being 'inoffensive' (ie not scaring white-y) is what makes something pop.

A big part of that album I think is deferring to pop music. I mean it uses samples from earlier pop artists. I think many here want to believe it is some rap equivalent of indie music. But I don't think they thought of it that way. Ice Cube and Dr. Dre went on to become hugely successful in the pop world. You couldn't turn on MTV without seeing them for a long time. Especially Dr. Dre who is like a billionaire now (related to Beats headphones, I guess?). You can tell he has huge ambition commercially probably to a fault.
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What journalist would call NWA pop? Usage dictates the meaning of terms.

And why is indie not pop (if that’s what you’re saying)?

So it is just a black thing then. You don’t think they have serious music.
 
Flamencology said:
Or it could be that you’re calling anything that isn’t pop, jazz or classical. :shrug:
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Yes, bluegrass is classical.

By the way, the sentence above and my one before are challenging to represent in a syntax diagram. “Anything that isn’t pop” can be replaced with “it” which makes the syntax easier.
 
I posted the wiki snippets to give context for the generally accepted meaning of the term. According to a few here, everything is pop, or at least if it sells a lot. I'm calling shenanigans.

NWA was certainly NOT pop.
 
rickenvox said:
Iron Maiden is pop disguised as metal.


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They probably have a Pop tune or two in their lineup. Not to the extent of Van Halen.

The Scorpions ' Rock You Like A Hurricane ', is as Pop as it gets. I despise that song. Although, it was also the best song I've seen them do live. Thanks Mr. Steve Morse!
 
rickenvox said:
What journalist would call NWA pop? Usage dictates the meaning of terms.

And why is indie not pop (if that’s what you’re saying)?

So it is just a black thing then. You don’t think they have serious music.
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I don't consider indie better than pop. People here project indieness onto their work like it is something apart from pop. Because they think indie is more special than pop. Which I disagree with. Indie music is often worse and has no inherent seriousness to it at all.

I know you're just going to reject this with some BS goalpost moving. But here goes. Here is the BBC:

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Billboard

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The Atlantic

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PopMatters

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Salon.com

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Pitchfork.com

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Universal Hip Hop Museum (Bronx)

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amazon.com's product description for NWA's greatest hits

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But the way. If NWA was so great, why didn't they perform at the Rock And Roll HOF? I know Easy was gone, but still. Snoop said he would have sat in.
 
Bones McHorror said:
I don't consider indie better than pop. People here project indieness onto their work like it is something apart from pop. Because they think indie is more special than pop. Which I disagree with. Indie music is often worse and has no inherent seriousness to it at all.
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Is indie pop or not in your opinion? Yes or no answer.



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