Back to the 90s: Smashing Pumpkins vs Stone Temple Pilots

[Peen Simmons]

As a side note, I was watching some internet vocal coach guy to check that out, and that guy does critiques of the vocals of bands, and does one on both Vedder and Weiland, and notes the swallowing your R’s thing that (he said) Vedder made popular in that time, though others like Tom Petty used that style before, and that Weiland used that same technique at that time.

Yarling!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yarl&amp=true

I dig the PJ run of Vitology through Yield, which are their artiest records and the ones most self-consciously trying to distance themselves from grungeola and tilting at the classic rock canon. (No Code is the secret gem in their catalog. It’s a great big mess.) I can find stuff to like on either side, but especially post-Binaural that band got real dull and their records became incredibly formulaic excuses to take their whole Grateful Dead for Alternative Nation show out on the road.

For my money, I thought they were a better band with Jack Irons in the fold. Cameron is just a little too plodding/metronomic for the kinda loose sloshing vibes of PJ’s rhythm team. And the less unedited soloing from Mike McCready the better.

 

[Peen Simmons]

I'll give a slight edge to the pumpkins but neither one is really my thing.

In the world of 90s alternative, I like a lot of jangly melodic stuff like Matthew Sweet, the Lemonheads, etc. over the wall of sludge sound

Matthew Sweet’s run from Girlfriend to 100% fun was pretty damn good. (I’m a big fan of Altered Beast myself.). But once he let Quine and Lloyd go and went to a “do it all himself” mode, the records were less dynamic. Blue Sky on Mars has some tunes, but not as many. And In Reverse is better in theory than in execution. The Japan-only release he did in the ‘00s came close to recapturing the magic—Lloyd was back in the fold.

I never got to see him play with Quine, but I saw him once with Lloyd and a few times when Ivan Julian was in the band.

Did you ever hear those late 80s solo releases Sweet did before Girlfriend but after he detached from the Athens, GA scene where he was kicking around? Lotsa slick 80s alt-pop synth vibes. Not quite there, but not entirely uninteresting.

 

[GusChiggins]

And I'd prolly say Pumpkins too, but Tiny Music is a really good album

 

[335clone]

Where is the Ear Bleach option?

Never cared for either. I had tiny music on my flash drive in the car for a while until I realized I skipped over every song of theirs when on shuffle, so I deleted that shit.

 

[wok]

Yarling!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yarl&amp=true

I dig the PJ run of Vitology through Yield, which are their artiest records and the ones most self-consciously trying to distance themselves from grungeola and tilting at the classic rock canon. (No Code is the secret gem in their catalog. It’s a great big mess.) I can find stuff to like on either side, but especially post-Binaural that band got real dull and their records became incredibly formulaic excuses to take their whole Grateful Dead for Alternative Nation show out on the road.

For my money, I thought they were a better band with Jack Irons in the fold. Cameron is just a little too plodding/metronomic for the kinda loose sloshing vibes of PJ’s rhythm team. And the less unedited soloing from Mike McCready the better.

 

[MonkeyZero]

During peak alternarock the Pumpkins were crazy prolific and managed a pretty broad range of styles.

Theses were b-sides from the same period as the double LP...









The Pumpkins had a real knack for memorable tunes/riffs and could make a real interesting record. STP were always kinda generic and their tunes blended together.

One major knock on Corgan in the post-reunion, Nu Pumpkins, and re-reunion periods is that his songwriting has gotten profoundly samey. There are like 48 tracks on that new electro-rock LP they put out last year and maybe three songs. His lyrics have turned to mush even moreso than before (and that’s saying something) and all the dynamics and textures are just hammered into a flat beige surface. Did you listen to that folky, Americana solo double record Billy put out a couple years ago? I did. Can’t remember shit from it. Which I guess demonstrates how special the Pumpkins early 90s run is. Tons of songs that are super memorable and recorded in unique and interesting ways that defined a lot of what “alternative rock”’or whatever sounded like.

I totally agree. Pumpkins from Gish through Machina 2 are fantastic. The rest, in my opinion, you can keep.
The new electro stuff is garbage and nowhere near what they used to be. I get band/sound evolution but come on. It's a completely different project and it shouldn't be called The Smashing Pumpkins.
Everyone jokes that the next tour will be Billy, Jimmy, and 12 keyboards. WHERE ARE THE GUITARS?!?!?!?

 

[MonkeyZero]

I saw them at Alpine Valley (killer venue) around 2004 (?) and I am not exaggerating, his lips never moved once. And we were 10 rows back!

 

[wok]

I saw them at Alpine Valley (killer venue) around 2004 (?) and I am not exaggerating, his lips never moved once. And we were 10 rows back!

i still really like them, if only for nostalgic reasons

 

[sunvalleylaw]

i still really like them, if only for nostalgic reasons

I suppose there could be some nostalgia in my still liking them. But, for me, more than that, there is a bit of loyalty and honoring that they survived the era alive, personally, and as a band. I loved that era of music, was living in the area (though I was not at a place in life where I went to many shows so missed a lot of the cool live stuff. And it was really sad for me that so many died from the addiction and drugs that plagued that musical era in Seattle. I thought Cornell had made it too, but in the end, apparently, something related but different took him too. That hit me hard. I had liked his recent work.

Also, I like that Ament and Gossard found a way to keep playing after losing Wood, that they brought on McCready (@Peen Simmons I agree, let Mike rip), Ament connected with Vedder and shared interest in music as art (even of some of their stuff after their best era is less inspired and even formulaic) and kept going, AND provided a way for people to connect and enjoy. As my kid and I did in these pics below in 2018 in Missoula, MT.

Also, I personally like their social and political work, from skate parks (mostly in poor tribal communities I think, esp. in MT. Skating is Ament’s thing), to raising money for the homeless (2018 Seattle shows) to getting out the vote and raising the voices of women, LBGTQ, and indigenous people (MT, 2018 show, it was quite an awareness festival outside of the UofMT stadium in a nearby park), and etc. And I like that they still release some visual art. So, they survived, and kept moving, and kept putting stuff out there. And I like that.

Stylistically, I was more drawn to Nirvana and the Pixies and etc. at the time, and still love those vibes. And if I had to pick, back then, it would have been Nirvana. But I have come to really enjoy PJ and what they have done.

EDIT, with that, I have to dig through the Pumpkins now and give them some respect for being around in any form, and make my own decisions about their work that I am largely unfamiliar with other than the hits from back in the day.

 

[Peen Simmons]

I totally agree. Pumpkins from Gish through Machina 2 are fantastic. The rest, in my opinion, you can keep.
The new electro stuff is garbage and nowhere near what they used to be. I get band/sound evolution but come on. It's a completely different project and it shouldn't be called The Smashing Pumpkins.
Everyone jokes that the next tour will be Billy, Jimmy, and 12 keyboards. WHERE ARE THE GUITARS?!?!?!?

The Pumpkins have always had a gothy, synthy side to them going all the way back to 88 with the drum machine pre-Jimmy. I don’t mind that. I do mind 1,100 songs on an album and only two or three are memorable. “Cyr” is a catchy song and I don’t hate the electro pop trappings and backing vocals. Just think it’s a 20 song album that only has one or three decent cuts on it and a whole lot of filler.

And Corgan’s lyrics—never a huge strong point—are just meaningless fluff and mispronounced 10-dollar words now. I’m not super psyched to hear that they’ve got TWO MORE double LPs that they’re currently working on simultaneously. Maybe pair it down and give us something solid.

 

[Peen Simmons]

@sunvalleylaw — if you know the hits and wanna check out the Pumpkins as an eclectic band, Pisces Iscariot might be a good place to start. It’s an odds and sods comp from the point where they transitioned from being a weirdo alt-psych band into arena superstars. It’s pretty low stakes, but it has some great sounds on it and it’s the least MAXIMUM CORGAN thing from their classic run.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

@sunvalleylaw — if you know the hits and wanna check out the Pumpkins as an eclectic band, Pisces Iscariot might be a good place to start. It’s an odds and sods comp from the point where they transitioned from being a weirdo alt-psych band into arena superstars. It’s pretty low stakes, but it has some great sounds on it and it’s the least MAXIMUM CORGAN thing from their classic run.

Thanks for the tip. Good to have a starting place.

 

[VoidTerraFirma]

It’s 1998. You’ve got 10M sold under your belt. Do you...

A. Lean into your Bowie/MC5 influence and sell 1.5M like a boss?



B. Commit legendary career suicide and break up the band by doing Marilyn Manson/Chris Gaines/Trent Reznor Fester/Clownshoe/trend chasing/sellout cosplay...to sell 1.5M. A self-own so bad you had to get into wresting to keep the band alive.

 

[Motorik]

I unironically really love the 'Ava Adore' video.

 

[VoidTerraFirma]

I unironically really love the 'Ava Adore' video.

you love the darkness

a beautiful disaster

 

[Peen Simmons]

It’s 1998. You’ve got 10M sold under your belt. Do you...

A. Lean into your Bowie/MC5 influence and sell 1.5M like a boss?



B. Commit legendary career suicide and break up the band by doing Marilyn Manson/Chris Gaines/Trent Reznor Fester/Clownshoe/trend chasing/sellout cosplay...to sell 1.5M. A self-own so bad you had to get into wresting to keep the band alive.

But Adore is a good record from a band that had a pretty strong goth leanings from day one—and they had already ridden their glam and Bowie influences as far as was reasonable.

And, if you recall, the shift to a folky gothtronica sound was partly because they had to launch JC for a serious heroin habit where he was involved in the overdose death of a touring band member. Sure, they could have tried to permanently replace him with a session duder like Joey Waronker or a free agent like Matt Cameron and keep the dream of 1994 alive, but that wasn’t happening for any of the big (or small) alternative bands.

1998, if you’ll recall, was the year when the alternative nation collapsed. Kurt was super dead. Pearl Jam had shifted into an irrelevant cult band mode of their own choosing. Alice and Chains were mostly defunct. Soundgarden had broken up. Trent Reznor punted on following up Spiral and released a moody, textural double LP instead with no “Head Like a Hole” or “Fuck You Like an Animal” style hit. Second wave alt bands like Weezer and Green Day and Hole and the like were broken up or in the wilderness. Beck put out a great but puzzling Prince/Bowie homage record and was a year or so away from a total reinvention. Nu Metal was ascendant. Grunge by products like Creed were having hits. People were trying hard to make Moby and Chemical Brothers and Fatboy Slim into stateside rock stars.

So it was a weird and transitional year for a lot of bands. Remember U2’s POPMART tour?

As for David Bowie in 1998...he had just released a record inspired by drum and bass sounds and was palling around with Trent Reznor. Heck in 1997 he was on stage with Corgan and a bunch of the other goth kids for some big celebratory thing. (Not present — Scott Weiland)

 

[Peen Simmons]

If you’re interested in the sordid details of SP’s history...

The actual self-own for the Pumpkins wasn’t Adore—which is pretty cleverly crafted and had developed quite a cult after the fact and which holds up astonishingly well today given its very on brand 1998 touches. (I recommend the alternate mono version which is moodier and richer). The Pumpkins’ self-own was trying to stage a “return to form” reunion with Jimmy only to lose D’Arcy to drugs in the middle of that while muddying the “return to form” narrative with an overlong concept record which actually suffers from many of the tacky period production missteps that people lay at Adore’s feet. And by this point James and Billy weren’t really speaking and they made a big dumb spectacle of the breakup and tried to blame Britney and N’Sync for their decision to break up.

Then Corgan and Chamberlain got a real “return to their roots” thing together with Zwan—who were damn good live, but then they got bogged down in the studio and everyone turned on each other and it blew up. And the final step in the self-own was putting on a full page “I want my band back” whinge in the Trib (without doing the work to coax James and D’Arcy back into the fold) on the day Corgan dropped his solo LP (which has some pretty neat guitar work and a decent Bowie meets Cure electronic edge and some solid tunes). Totally overshadowed everything he was working on and sent him down the path of being a ridiculous heel for years of wasted effort and squandered opportunities.

I mean, after the Zeitgeist reunion sputtered he went out to LA and did a bunch of stuff with 60s psych rock guys like Sky Saxon from the Seeds and Mark Tulin from the Electric Prunes which would have maybe been fun to hear. Had this big shaggy collective thing going and then just scrapped it randomly to chase a Nu Pumpkins with a bunch of pretty young people (who weren’t bad) but then he canned all of them when they didn’t love him enough. Then he went on tour as the Pumpkins with JC and some dudes from Killers. And then finally he mended fences with Iha and looked like he was gonna bring D’Arcy back in and couldn’t even do the GNR thing right and...here we are.

 

[DdBob]

It’s 1998. You’ve got 10M sold under your belt. Do you...

A. Stone Temple Borelords ---dididn't they already do this song like 12 times?



B. Smashing Mutherfuckin' Pumpkins .....Adore was a good record

fixed

 

[Peen Simmons]

It’s 1998. You’ve got 10M sold under your belt. Do you...

A. Lean into your Bowie/MC5 influence and sell 1.5M like a boss?

This post here is actually pretty troubling. I mean, this sounds like a Bowie/MC5 homage only if your exposure to Bowie was a couple Tin Machine discount bin discs and maybe Outside...and if you had never heard the MC5 ever.



Maybe @VoidTerraFirma has never heard the MC5 record produced by Springsteen manager Jon Landau before Landau saw the future of rock and proclaimed it Bruce Springsteen. (There’s not an inconsiderable bit of pre-work here that would later get filtered through the Boss and come out the other side as the River/Born in the USA sensibility.)

 

[DdBob]

If you’re interested in the sordid details of SP’s history...

The actual self-own for the Pumpkins wasn’t Adore—which is pretty cleverly crafted and had developed quite a cult after the fact and which holds up astonishingly well today given its very on brand 1998 touches. (I recommend the alternate mono version which is moodier and richer). The Pumpkins’ self-own was trying to stage a “return to form” reunion with Jimmy only to lose D’Arcy to drugs in the middle of that while muddying the “return to form” narrative with an overlong concept record which actually suffers from many of the tacky period production missteps that people lay at Adore’s feet. And by this point James and Billy weren’t really speaking and they made a big dumb spectacle of the breakup and tried to blame Britney and N’Sync for their decision to break up.

Then Corgan and Chamberlain got a real “return to their roots” thing together with Zwan—who were damn good live, but then they got bogged down in the studio and everyone turned on each other and it blew up. And the final step in the self-own was putting on a full page “I want my band back” whinge in the Trib (without doing the work to coax James and D’Arcy back into the fold) on the day Corgan dropped his solo LP (which has some pretty neat guitar work and a decent Bowie meets Cure electronic edge and some solid tunes). Totally overshadowed everything he was working on and sent him down the path of being a ridiculous heel for years of wasted effort and squandered opportunities.

I mean, after the Zeitgeist reunion sputtered he went out to LA and did a bunch of stuff with 60s psych rock guys like Sky Saxon from the Seeds and Mark Tulin from the Electric Prunes which would have maybe been fun to hear. Had this big shaggy collective thing going and then just scrapped it randomly to chase a Nu Pumpkins with a bunch of pretty young people (who weren’t bad) but then he canned all of them when they didn’t love him enough. Then he went on tour as the Pumpkins with JC and some dudes from Killers. And then finally he mended fences with Iha and looked like he was gonna bring D’Arcy back in and couldn’t even do the GNR thing right and...here we are.

I remember when Zwan first appeared. I was heavily into Grateful Dead cd-r trading of shows(I started out with cassette tapes then it went to CD-R and then torrents) well anyway Zwan surfaced in various traders lists and this was quite a bit before they released their album. Then a few months later there were numerous Zwan shows making the rounds...they were becoming a Pearl Jam/Phish/Dead thing....then I think they played SNL and released their album and it was shit fro0m there on.