Billy Corgan on the implosion of the pumpkins and the record industry

^^^ I'm not entirely sure of that -- I knew some folks who went to Duke, Yale, Harvard, Brown, Bard .... and they were not at the bottom of their classes. But they were the successful ones.

Anyhow, the point I was trying to make that is that, IMO, it's childish (not the good, Billy Childish, either) to think that a business should be serving it's employees' personal needs and/or agendas. Yes, I am quite aware that A&R means helping artists develop, but it also means serving the company's agenda, which is to convert the talent to money.

Artists are the ones who get starry-eyed about fame, sexual and chemical indulgence, artistic recognition, and carefree wealth. I have no objection to someone wanting those things, but to expect it from your business partner is .... well, kinda immature. That's why managers, attorneys, etc.

When I poked around that business, there was a very typical artist attitude that I could simplify (but not unfairly) as "if people like my music, then I deserve those things (see: list above), and it's your job to get them for me!" With the 'you' in the sentence being most people who were making a living by promoting their music.

Apart from the self-centeredness there, a thorny issue is one of valuation: is the labor of promotion people really worthless? A quick check of the approximately 1.5 million artists who bitched about their release "not getting priority" suggests otherwise. Yet, they take the value of that labor for granted.

I'd like to add that I met a shitload of hard, hard working artists, and I have enormous respect for their dedication. It takes a shitload of hard work to create a "Money For Nothing," and I know it.

TLDR: artists have no clue about actual economics and business, and this lack of understanding tends to give them hurt feelers when their sense of entitlement is not fulfilled. This causes resentment by promoters, which often leads to them (correctly, but rather ickily) pointing out how replaceable "talent" is.
 
I failed to get any meaningful insights out of that interview. Rogan is just saying "wow I never realized that" the whole time. Corgan is doing less whining than he has in the past, but still what did he end up saying? nothing. The record industry should have squashed Napster and the whole digital music on the internet revolution?? Napster was squashed and there was NO WAY to stop what came after. Bands have to tour and sell merchandise now to make money (the bands I listen to). Not a bad model. Smashing Pumpkins were still in the old paradigm of being on a major label and missed out on the whole indie music thing. They also came out at a strange time, along with Jane's Addiction, just before the grunge music scene and the NIN/Tool/Ministry/White Zombie/Marlyn Manson (whatever you call that genre) scene. Their Melancholy album showed some growth and pre-shadowed a lot of indie bands to come. But they slowly faded into insignificance after that. Corgan should count himself lucky ever getting to the top with a voice that sounds like a 12 year old imitating the guitar line from Whole Lotta Love. And he's doing something with professional wrestling now?? Not many normal job options if you skip college.
 
Largely, I think that listeners are to blame. Yes, the record companies were shitty. But people were quick to normalize the ridiculous notion that all music should be free.

I think the way record companies devalued the artists had a lot to do with listeners devaluing the art. All those years of watching bands get fucked made people wonder why they should buy and album that the artist probably wouldn't get paid for anyway. The record industry should have seen what Behind the Music and Rolling Stone did to their reputation and tried to fix it.
 
I think the way record companies devalued the artists had a lot to do with listeners devaluing the art. All those years of watching bands get fucked made people wonder why they should buy and album that the artist probably wouldn't get paid for anyway. The record industry should have seen what Behind the Music and Rolling Stone did to their reputation and tried to fix it.

Perhaps. But now we have college students who have gone their entire lives with unlimited access to music without ever having spent a dollar for it.
 
To me it sounded like he was blaming himself, at least with regard to the band drama.
Which was completely unexpected. Historically he's a giant douchecanoe. It sounds like he's had some revelations and grew up in this interview.
 
Nobody warned me about the potential problems, except when they warned me about the potential problems.
 
Most people refuse to discuss one of the largest reasons that recorded music has been devalued: over-supply.

If you look at three basic economic drivers (# of potential customers e.g. market size; # of releases; discretionary income) it's clear that 2015 and 1966 do not resemble each other at all. The most significant changes:

* astronomical increase in the # of releases. If you look at musical recordings vs. total population, this is a mind-blowing statistic. And because the implication is uncomfortable for many (that "too much" music is getting recorded and released), this topic is avoided. Simple economics dictates that if you have a glut of a product, it cannot retain it's value. But this is the giant elephant in the room no one is willing to discuss. Everyone records their music now. And "releases" it to Bandcamp, or etc. etc.

* Adjusted for inflation, discretionary income for Americans has been reduced greatly since the 70's. Concurrently, there are many more things competing for that dollar.

* The broadcast model has utterly changed, from a few thousand terrestrial AM & FM stations to on-demand online playback. Could this be a very long discussion? Of course. And a fascinating one. Relevant is that there is no way to assign old valuation to a new world. Tobacco in 1300 vs. tobacco in 1800.

Downloading contributed to a devaluation of music, but I have seen it scapegoated by those who flat out refuse to discuss #1 above.
 
Wow!

That was the least dickish I've ever seen him. It's as if he might have finally realized what an utter shitheel he's been over the years. I was never really a fan, I probably "should" have been based on my musical tastes, but unfortunately I was already aware of his flawed personality before I ever heard the music. It was tainted before it had a chance.

I did watch a video a while back of him playing lead guitar on Another Brick in the Wall, and thought he did it nicely.

Well, good for him. If it can actually be arranged that the estranged original bandmates and Billy could reunite, I'd be interested in going to see it. It would definitely undo a lot of hard feelings if they were to finally get their due acknowledgement and a decent financial shot in the arm.

Good on you Billy.
 
I’m not sure why people are so hungry for a reunion of the original lineup. Those early songs everybody loved were all Billy and Jimmy on the albums. Back in the Pumpkins glory days Wretzky and Iha were essentially hired guns who filled out a live lineup. Why does it matter who plays Billy’s old parts now?
 
Most people refuse to discuss one of the largest reasons that recorded music has been devalued: over-supply.

If you look at three basic economic drivers (# of potential customers e.g. market size; # of releases; discretionary income) it's clear that 2015 and 1966 do not resemble each other at all. The most significant changes:

* astronomical increase in the # of releases. If you look at musical recordings vs. total population, this is a mind-blowing statistic. And because the implication is uncomfortable for many (that "too much" music is getting recorded and released), this topic is avoided. Simple economics dictates that if you have a glut of a product, it cannot retain it's value. But this is the giant elephant in the room no one is willing to discuss. Everyone records their music now. And "releases" it to Bandcamp, or etc. etc.

* Adjusted for inflation, discretionary income for Americans has been reduced greatly since the 70's. Concurrently, there are many more things competing for that dollar.

* The broadcast model has utterly changed, from a few thousand terrestrial AM & FM stations to on-demand online playback. Could this be a very long discussion? Of course. And a fascinating one. Relevant is that there is no way to assign old valuation to a new world. Tobacco in 1300 vs. tobacco in 1800.

Downloading contributed to a devaluation of music, but I have seen it scapegoated by those who flat out refuse to discuss #1 above.

Good answer. Ima keep my eye on you! :samkinison:
 
I think the way record companies devalued the artists had a lot to do with listeners devaluing the art. All those years of watching bands get fucked made people wonder why they should buy and album that the artist probably wouldn't get paid for anyway. The record industry should have seen what Behind the Music and Rolling Stone did to their reputation and tried to fix it.

I think you're over complicating basic human nature here.

If we both have grocery shops and mine gives away free mars bars, guess where most people are going to get their mars bars from.
 
I’m not sure why people are so hungry for a reunion of the original lineup. Those early songs everybody loved were all Billy and Jimmy on the albums. Back in the Pumpkins glory days Wretzky and Iha were essentially hired guns who filled out a live lineup. Why does it matter who plays Billy’s old parts now?

Not entirely true. They were a band in the sense that they were four people who contributed to the group’s sensibility and all that shit. Iha was more of a contributor pre-Gish (and before all the alterna hype took off). And it was Vig who really pushed Billy to play all the parts on the first two LPs. But the live identity of the band were those four people...and the biggest album, Mellon Collie, was recorded by all four members contributing.

I suspect people want the original lineup back because that’s the golden age version of the band. And those folks had a certain chemistry and charisma together.

I saw the Auf du Mar version of the band a few times—they were good. I saw Zwan...who had some oomph in the clubs but lost the charisma when the album hit and they moved to bigger rooms. (You could tell the band just didn’t like eachother anymore). And I’ve seen an iteration or two of the Nu Pumpkins. They were musically solid, but dull. No pizazz.

It seems clear that Billy is trying to drop the heel act and return to his babyface days so that it’s easier to sell a reunion to everyone who is buying. I’m sure being older and having a kid has helped him mellow a big. And I hope someone sensible has given him a heads up about going in Alex Jones and acting like a paranoid loon as it relates to his potential box office returns. (Stupid Gen X provocations are way less cute when a bunch of 50-something dudes are doing it.) I’m sure I’ll be too cheap to pony up for the reunion. But it’d be nice if the other kids get paid and can buy health insurance. I’m sure this band will fuck it up. And if they do make a record it’ll be another silly “return to rock” instead of the pretty, hushed psychedelic pop album these people should make and never seem to do.
 
I saw the SP's before and after Gish, and would agree that there's a certain je nais sais quoi (I'm sure I've spelt that wrong) about lineup chemistry. And FWIW, I do think Chamberlin was a fantastic drummer who was not simply replaceable.

But it was always Billy's band. They were his songs. The production vision was his, although you can't fail to recognize the enormous talent of Butch Vig as an engineer and session quarterback. The only thing that I thought was really 'different' about Corgan was his occasionally stupefying inability to tell the same polite lies most people did.

***************************
Grocery analogy still lacking: as always, refusal to recognize the massive impact of # of releases. Correct analogy: would you buy bread from store A if store B had over 50,000 loaves that they needed to have gone by noon? This is the piece no one ever discusses on music forums. That people will still pay - handsomely - to see live music belies the idea that people don't value music.

What they don't value is the specific experience of purchasing a recording for future playback.
 
Yeah. It’s Billy’s band. And Jimmy is irreplaceable. The best rock drummer of his little chunk of alt rock space time.

And clearly Vig and Billy were building a thing that didn’t require the full band lineup...which by all accounts was a dysfunctional mess from way back.

And Corgan specifically and the Pumpkins as a whole are a great example of the self-sabotaging Chicago sensibility wherein you make frenemies of everyone while never being able to shut your yap. It’s not cool like when a New Yorker like Lou Reed is a dick. It’s a petty kind of half-kidding. See also West, Kanye.

There’s somethibg about Chicago’s specific style of assholery that doesn’t translate. It’s in-jokey and sarcastic and a little mean spirited and a lot about personal self loathing. It’s Steve Albini and Urge Overkill and Bill Murray and every asshole Chicago sports fan. I can’t quite put words to it, but there’s a local thing that finds it really satisfying to walk into a room and say something really rude and really true and then pretend like it was a weird kind of half-joke.
 
See also: Urge Overkill v. Steve Albini.

Edit: holy shit, look what you cited in your own 2nd paragraph! lulz.
 
See also: Urge Overkill v. Steve Albini.

Edit: holy shit, look what you cited in your own 2nd paragraph! lulz.

Chicago doesn’t churn out a lot of successful bands because the sensibility just doesn’t translate and it’s hard to package and commodify in an appealing way (Liz Phair). Chicago is a great town for touring acts to play because we’re an audience that loves a cult hero...but our native pop products are cruel and twisted and not quite right (Cheap Trick...Rockford, but still....). We like it brutal and snarky (Ministry...Jesus Lizard...) but no one else wants all that drunk asshole bluster

Hell, out most current beloved elder statesman is imported from the down state (Tweedy/Wilco) where people are nicer.

https://m.chicagoreader.com/chicago...d-their-music-press-stooge/Content?oid=883689
 
It seems clear that Billy is trying to drop the heel act and return to his babyface days so that it’s easier to sell a reunion to everyone who is buying.
I have a hard time associating Corgan with the wrestling characterization, but can't argue with the conclusion...
 
I have a hard time associating Corgan with the wrestling characterization, but can't argue with the conclusion...
He’s a huge wrestling nerd, and he’s even stated publicly that he’s often playing the heel in the media. I suspect that it’s very boring being an alt rock elder statesmen whose only market value is the greatest hits tour. He probably was keeping things interesting for himself and keeping the media talking. But now he’s likely got wares to sell, so it’s time to make nice and stop being a super dick.

He needs to be a bit more Dave Grohl about things to get the paycheck.
 
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