Charlottesville

rhino said:
Thanks for clarifying. I can see where you're coming from.

What I'm referring to isn't the drunk uncle. I'm talking about his wife that tells him to stop because she knows he's being an ass.
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Yeah- .... ish.

What I'm talking about, my friend, is the wife/sister/mother/brother/buddy that doesn't tell him to stop because they knows he's behaving like an ass.

Who is it that doesn't slap that motherfucker in the face with a rolled-up newspaper and say "NO!!!"

Because if they don't, if they don't tell him to stop because they knows he's being an ass ... those people bear blame and responsibility as well because they allowed it and normalized it.

The people who said nothing are enablers. They allow and provide a support system for this loathsome shit.
 
rickenvox said:
you know there was a day when conservatives used to embrace the type of terrorists like Irv Rubin and the Jewish Defense League (JDL) who used to bomb American Nazis (I'm not saying that's good, just a contrast to today's situation). Nazis never had a seat at the table of American politics until now. Trump's supporters have no history with the Republican Party or American conservative politics in any intelligent way.
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There's a whole channel where history used to be synonymous with Nazis (and now where history is pawn shops) and a whole internet where everyone is Nazis for everything.

I think America has developed a weird Nazi fixation and now some of the worst and most misguided of us are putting it into practice.

There've always been fringey weird Nazi assholes, but I think that there's something about familiarity breeding fascination and opening the door. A little too much focus of will and interest and *boom* we have a cartoon asshole president with a bunch of Nazi fanboys.

So much for access to all the world's information whenever we want it making people smarter and better.

Maybe the same phenomenon where the internet lets the one gay punk rock kid in Nowheresville, KS know that he's not alone also lets the one contrarian Nazi dickhead in Nowheresville, IN know that there're other vicious little shits out there.
 
Johnny N. said:
I think you touch on something important here. I grew up in a Southern family and was taught to be proud of that heritage. But what I was taught about being southern was that we were polite to everyone, to address everyone with respect, that we were generally outdoorsmen, that we treat women well, that we are to be generous even if we don't have much, that family was of utmost importance, the church was part of the community and community was also important. Those are the types of values were taught. We weren't taught that we were better because we were white but we were very aware that some were.

But what happens is, everyone gets lumped in with the morons we saw in VA. Another by product of the current divisive mindset of some people. Everyone that even hints that they have an issue with the removal of a statue of someone like Lee is a dissenter. A denier. But I think what gets missed is to those who are proud of being southern for the reasons mentioned above might feel like the act of removing these things is chipping away at their culture. It doesn't mean they support slavery. It doesn't mean they are a racist. And maybe it's not that it ultimately gets removed but that it feels like government came in and did whatever they wanted. It gives the feeling of what's next. So maybe it's not just about the statue. Maybe its about making people feel like they have to be ashamed because they are from the south because slavery.

Necessary disclaimer: This in no way indicates that I condone, support or otherwise accept the actions of any moron from the events in VA or any other like it.
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kkk.jpg


I've seen this pic a lot on facebook lately, like it's from the rally last Saturday. Apparently it's from 20 years ago.

First I want to say, I live in Illinois. There are racist assholes in Illinois too.

About the statues, and your "heritage that you are proud of", I think it's commendable and something you should be proud of. I still have a problem with the statues though. Can't they be replaced with other statues of people that embody this but, were not involved in something so horrible? The little kid in the pic doesn't have much chance to grow up normal with parents that would dress him up like that. What I'm thinking about is the guy driving the car. Does he grow up thinking if I mow down people they will make a statue of me some day?
 
Abstract thinking time!

IF it is sub-optimal that people should feel shame re: the past deeds of the people/region which they are associated with b/c of a trick of geography, chronology, family...

THEN isn't it also kinda silly to feel pride for the good things about a people/region for whom your affinity is merely a trick of geography, chronology, family?

You cannot possess and consume the cake as well...at least without some serious cognitive dissonance. Which is the how people get mired in the Slough of Memory and Heritage.

Go State University Redbirds! Kill the University of State Tigers! God is clearly on our side...except when he's busy being on Tom Brady's side.
 
sleewell said:
the people getting run over by the klan are just as guilty as the bigot driving the car. there are good people who go to nazi rallies on both sides. wtf. this can't be real life. we need a new president.
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jeebuz.....i started reading your post and began to think YOU were saying that.....then i got to the end of the post and realized you were quoting cheet-ar.

please......use quotation marks wave0
 
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sleewell said:
the people getting run over by the klan are just as guilty as the bigot driving the car. there are good people who go to nazi rallies on both sides. wtf. this can't be real life. we need a new president.
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Not an endorsement of the thought process, but it goes something like this...

"If the Nationalists had been allowed to have their peaceful demonstration as is their right and not been interfered with by an opposition group intent on causing a confrontation the violence would not have happened. It was the counter demonstrators that caused this.

...of course, though, both sides are equally to blame..."

Taken at face value they aren't wrong, but they fail to acknowledge that the right to peacefully assemble doesn't supplant others' right to peacefully assemble at the same time...nor do they seem to understand that messages of intolerance and hate are not and cannot be considered peaceful, and can and should be met with equal messages of tolerance and acceptance...nor do they acknowledge that their message empowers people to believe that murder and mayhem are acceptable forms of protest...
 
Bob411 said:
I've seen this pic a lot on facebook lately, like it's from the rally last Saturday. Apparently it's from 20 years ago.

First I want to say, I live in Illinois. There are racist assholes in Illinois too.

About the statues, and your "heritage that you are proud of", I think it's commendable and something you should be proud of. I still have a problem with the statues though. Can't they be replaced with other statues of people that embody this but, were not involved in something so horrible? The little kid in the pic doesn't have much chance to grow up normal with parents that would dress him up like that. What I'm thinking about is the guy driving the car. Does he grow up thinking if I mow down people they will make a statue of me some day?
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I don't disagree necessarily but just from observation, I don't think for most normal people it is specifically about the statue or the subject of the statue. And please understand I know it is a completely different scale but just from watching what is going on, I think there are a lot of people who feel it is an escalation of the concept of we are going to get rid of anything that offends anyone. I don't really know that to be true, just seems that way from observation. Now when it comes to the skinhead nut jobs, that is an entirely different situation and I think they will find any excuse to display their hate. But just talking about why a normal southern person might be a little uncomfortable with removing statues, maybe it is more about that.

Honestly, growing up Civil War generals were never held up to us as anything other than someone else we had to learn about in class. So maybe people would be less itchy if these were discussions about what might benefit all. But the climate right now is what benefits me and now loud can I scream it on the internet.
 
Peen Simmons said:
Abstract thinking time!

IF it is sub-optimal that people should feel shame re: the past deeds of the people/region which they are associated with b/c of a trick of geography, chronology, family...

THEN isn't it also kinda silly to feel pride for the good things about a people/region for whom your affinity is merely a trick of geography, chronology, family?

You cannot possess and consume the cake as well...at least without some serious cognitive dissonance. Which is the how people get mired in the Slough of Memory and Heritage.

Go State University Redbirds! Kill the University of State Tigers! God is clearly on our side...except when he's busy being on Tom Brady's side.
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Interesting how you chose to use sub-optimal and silly.

Aside from that I think it is entirely possible to both possess and ingest sugary confections..... as it were.

And maybe it is semantics but there is no need to feel shame for those that came before us but certainly we can denounce those deeds. And by feeling pride for the good things we are more likely to continue those traditions so that over generations change happens. Clearly, change has happened.

And as silly as the "go team" thing can be, it wasn't a bid deal until so many jumped on the Team D and Team R bandwagon. Setting extremes aside, most of the BS we see on social media and even on this forum sounds a lot more like college football arguments than discussion about what is best for us as citizens. Right? Fortunately this forum stays relatively civil but probably because it is Team D heavy. Like a bar in Pittsburgh would be heavy on the Steelers fans so not much chance of a fight from a Browns fan or something.

The way I see it we have a few choices as human beings. We can continue to let the political powers and the media push us into our team jerseys and continue to tear each other down thinking someday everyone will be like us (scary huh?) or we can turn around and look back at those manipulating us as a collective front and tell them what we should do. Now that is some abstract thinking.
 
jelloman said:
Not an endorsement of the thought process, but it goes something like this...

"If the Nationalists had been allowed to have their peaceful demonstration as is their right and not been interfered with by an opposition group intent on causing a confrontation the violence would not have happened. It was the counter demonstrators that caused this.

...of course, though, both sides are equally to blame..."

Taken at face value they aren't wrong, but they fail to acknowledge that the right to peacefully assemble doesn't supplant others' right to peacefully assemble at the same time...nor do they seem to understand that messages of intolerance and hate are not and cannot be considered peaceful, and can and should be met with equal messages of tolerance and acceptance...nor do they acknowledge that their message empowers people to believe that murder and mayhem are acceptable forms of protest...
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That's the smartest thing you've said all week. :thu:
 
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