Ask a (hack) luthier!

dougk said:
This is a fairly loaded question, but I'll do my best. Lets focus on one of my median guitars such as a Starliner or Daylighter Standard. This really right about the middle of my lineup. Lets start with guitar time and cost first, then focus on what most people really ignore about business: the real cost of owning a business:

The reality of building a guitar is yes, the "costs" are relatively low. Parts, hardware and a case with all tier one components (tonepros, sperzel, hipshot, CTS, switchcraft, boutique pickups, G&G case or mono or reunion blues ect ect) is roughly anywhere from 400-700 bucks depending on how you slice it. On a guitar to guitar basis, wood is relatively a small portion ranging from 50-500 dollars depending on how exotic you get. So right now you anywhere between 500 to a 1000 dollars before putting one tool to wood.

Now, an average carved top of mine has 2 hours in material prep, 45 minutes in CNC time for the body, roughly 120 minutes for the neck (including fretboard machining, lasering the headstock veneers ect but not including glue up times). Now this is ROUGH machining. Bodies have generally an additional 90-120 minutes of sanding, drilling and prep work, necks have 30-60 minutes of leveling and fretting and 30-60 minutes final shaping, sanding and fitting.

So we are at roughly 8-10 hours at the point the neck gets set to the body of hands on work. This is a low estimate likely.

Once the neck is set, I have roughly 60-90 minutes of sanding to prep for sealer. Then we start the finishing process. This is tough to judge because it only takes 5-10 minutes to spray a sealer coat but we can only do this once a day. So we spray a sealer wash coat, next day grain fill (15 minutes), next day sand all the filler flat (30 minutes), sealer coat (5 minutes), wait 24 hours then sand 80% flat (30 minutes), sealer coat (5 minutes), wait 24 hours then sand 100% flat (if possible, if not add an additional 2 days and 35 minutes), mask the back off (15 minutes) and burst the top (15-30 minutes), wait 24 hours, mask the top and bindings off (20 minutes) and shoot the back color (5 minutes), peel tape and clean up bindings (5-20 minutes), spray tinted toner coat then move onto clear (15 minutes), wait 24 hours and scuff then spray clear (15 minutes), wait 48 hours- level sand with 800 (30 minutes) and final round of clear (15 minutes). Then wait 7 days, level sand (60 minutes) and buff (30 minutes) entire guitar.

So that brings the entire finishing process to: ~385 minutes or nearly 7 hours over 2 weeks. Minimum. If everything goes perfect first try. About 80% of the time it does but not every time.

Now we're near 20 hours, lets round down to 18. Hour hours, at Jiffy Lube shop rate of 110 an hour and we are just about 2k already. So 2k in time, plus 1k in hardware and incidentals and we are now 3k (my Starliner STD is 3850 so we have some more to go).

OK, now the guitar is ready for fretwork, assembly ect. Fretwork generally runs about 60 minutes from untapping and clean up through level, recrown, polishing and edge work. Occasionally we get a fret that is springing (sometimes will have something trapped in the slot underneath) but generally goes pretty smoothly. Of course, we won't know this till the end.

Wiring, assembly and setup generally takes me about 4-5 hours more. Seems to be pretty consistent that I can put two guitars together a day if I'm uninterrupted and the fretwork is already done. Then I'll play the guitar for 5-30 minutes, make final adjustments and fix anything that crops up.

So our total "everything goes perfectly" time is about 26-30 hours or about 2900 at the Jiffy Lube rate plus hardware and we are at 3900. A thing goes perfectly timeline rarely happens. I know from 6 years of tracking that generally our carved top STD will be closer to 40 hours. Heck, I lose at least an hour just filling out spec sheets, COA's and shipping labels/boxes.

For reference, this is a shop with two CNC's running about 80% efficiency in terms of top carve or neck profile carving (we could run them at a higher resolution for less sanding or hand work but it takes longer than sanding them out), a laser, top tier sander, planer and saws (SCM). I have one 2.5-3 day a week employee, he is now doing the necks damn near start to finish (I do the final carve/sanding and final fretwork, he does everything else). Otherwise, it's just me.

Now this is where most people get hung up. Two areas: "Well shit it's only a XXX amount in parts in hardware, why is the guitar so expensive?!" Time. "What 110 an hour? That's outrageous!!" . First of all, shouldn't I be figuring my time is worth at least as much as Jiffy Lube? Secondly, I don't make a 110 / hour, THATS what the business *should* be making to keep the doors open. That's not even profitable for me because I rarely hit those numbers for what I charge. Hell, if I was really able to stay on 100-150 / hour we'd barely even be profitable still.

The reality is, a business is a giant black hole that takes all your money and time, slaps you in the face with it then burns it. Let me share some spotlight on this:

Here's a list of equipment that I own and have acquired over the years and their costs:
Big CNC: 100k (bodies, necks, fretboards, large plastic bits)
Small CNC: 10k (neck carve only)
Laser: 12k
Sliding table saw: 12k
Widebelt: 15k
Planer: 6k (used)
Spraybooth: 3-4k
Dust collection: 5-10k (no idea really by the time you add it all up)
Buffer: 1k
Small table saw: 1k

That's just the big tools. There's nearly 30 years of tool collecting at my shop and god knows how much I've spent on guitar specific small hand tools.

That's just my costs to have bought them. Keeping them running continues to require expenses (tools, maintenance ect).

Then you have expendables: sand paper, router bits, all of the finishing materials, solder, wire, wood, tape, glue, spray booth filters ect. These are all recurring monthly expenses.

Then I have rent (a lot), city, state and federal fee's, taxes and other charges (a lot), electricity, insurance (personal and coverage for the shop itself), internet, phone, alarm and other related permits.

Advertising (print, social media AND websites), trade shows, travel and events.

Then on top of all that I have to be: CEO, secretary, bookkeeper, logistics manager, HR, shipping department, answer the phone (60-90 minutes a day), answer an average of 50 emails day, social media manager, tech support and somewhere way down the list a father and a husband.

This barely touches all of it. BARELY. There are so many expenses I honestly can't remember them all. Oh and remember this, when you are looking at one of my guitars at a dealer, that means I made significantly less on that guitar (hopefully made up by volume but rarely is at my level).

So next time you look at the price of a guitar, before you scoff, if it wasn't built by slave labor in China then you should consider this list first. :wink:
Click to expand...
Um...wow...

First of all, THANK YOU...thank you for taking the time to respond, especially on a saturday night when you could have been hanging with friends or the family...please extend my apologies to your wife...

Second, while I knew, in principal, how the process work I had no idea of it's scope in actual practice...I also vow here and now to never scoff at the price of a boutique instrument again, opting instead to lament my inability to afford one...it's a wonder how it's even possible for us to buy a guitar in the 400-600 dollar price range, or less, that's even playable...

You mentioned that spraying a finish coat is a 5-10 minute process but you failed to mention the time it takes to prep the booth, load the gun, and clean up afterwords...I know from experience dealing with auto body painters that a professional level HVLP spray gun can cost as much as 500.00 each, and that most professional auto body painters keep several and use each one for a specific finishing step...these guns need to be torn down and cleaned thoroughly after each use, which takes additional time...it should also be noted that once you a spraying event is completed the booth is unavailable for the rest of that day...you cannot go back in a few hours later to spray another piece...

I'm reminded of a sign that hangs in several shops I deal with in my job...it's titled "What it costs us to fix your car" and goes on t list about 20 expenses that must be paid out of their shop fees, including the basics like electricity and shop supples to the less obvious like tool repair and maintenance and concludes with "occasionall we like a pizza"...I used to own a MAC Tool truck and have a good grasp on the sentiment behind that sign...

I'm just guessing but it appears, if you are working flat out and uninterrupted, you can turn out 2 to 3 instruments a week...a more realistic estimate, considering all the functions you need to perform, would be 1 or 2 though...so with 38 open orders you have, what, a year's backlog of work? Are there any fears of losing orders due to the delay? Or are the customers accepting of the delay?

I would be interested if Telecaster911's having similar experiences with his business, and if his process and production times are similar...

Anyways...thanks again for taking the time to inform us morons of the realities of the production end of what we love...
 
I've always understood the "why" aspect of custom guitars being pricey.
doesn't mean I have to like it, I'm a cheap bastard :wink:

hell, I didn't even make $10K last year.
so the idea of spending half (or more) of my yearly income on a guitar is pretty crazy :wink:
 
dougk said:
This is more arbitrary. My prices are 'expensive' by most standards on here but as I think I explained above, I probably should be charging double. I want to keep my prices as reasonable as I can (without losing too much money!) because I empathize about the prices. Now when you start getting into 10k and up, you are moving in different circles.

Is a Ken Parker archtop "worth" 30k? Sure. The amount of thought, design and innovation in that guitar is staggering. Would I pay 30k for one (with my current "salary")? Nope but that's because I don't personally dig archtop guitars in general but I'm never going to judge anyone for owning one. A friend does and he explained it best: "When I was looking at it, I had 30k in guitars in my house I've bought over the years that I would trade all away in a heartbeat for that one Parker. So that's what I did" Makes sense to me.

Frankly, for the people who send me a hundred emails that require specific answers then bitch about the price at the end really annoy me. The reality is, if you REALLY want one of my guitars then don't bitch about the price, set some priorities in your life to make it happen. Skip starbucks or the bar or going out to eat or buying model trains or whatever your hobby is a couple times a month. You'd be amazed how often you'll spend 50 bucks here or a 100 bucks there when you don't have a goal.

Remember this rule my realtor once told me: Your house (guitar) is worth whatever someone will pay for it. People buy Parkers and Ken is totally content to do 4 a year. That's awesome. People buy 8k Huber's with out blinking and Nik has a 500 guitar back log. FIVE HUNDRED. 2.5 years at their current production. I have 39 guitars on order as of today and for me, 39 is great to have on order at one point in time.

So the price of a guitar that's selling is obviously the right price. :wink:
Click to expand...
This raises a point I often find myself pondering...

I own at this moment 8 guitars...a MiM Strat, 2 Washburns, 2 Epiphones, 2 "partscasters" and a Samick bass...none of which cost me more than 600.00...If I was able to sell them off at approximately 500.00 each (higher than market value) I could afford to buy ONE of your guitars...as I am not a professinal musician one guitar would probably be enough for me...but as a hobbie-ist player do i NEED an instrument of that quality? Do I really need the 8 I have now?

Probably not...

If I were to buy an ultra-high quality instrument that would also raise the spectre of AMPS...there would be very little point playing an instrument of that level through a Fender SuperChamp SCXD...so I would probably need to upgrade my amp substantially...

I think it's that frustration level that also informs our reactions to the price of boutique guitars...
 
jelloman said:
This raises a point I often find myself pondering...

I own at this moment 8 guitars...a MiM Strat, 2 Washburns, 2 Epiphones, 2 "partscasters" and a Samick bass...none of which cost me more than 600.00...If I was able to sell them off at approximately 500.00 each (higher than market value) I could afford to buy ONE of your guitars...as I am not a professinal musician one guitar would probably be enough for me...but as a hobbie-ist player do i NEED an instrument of that quality? Do I really need the 8 I have now?

Probably not...

If I were to buy an ultra-high quality instrument that would also raise the spectre of AMPS...there would be very little point playing an instrument of that level through a Fender SuperChamp SCXD...so I would probably need to upgrade my amp substantially...

I think it's that frustration level that also informs our reactions to the price of boutique guitars...
Click to expand...

solution: get better, save your money, buy the guitar you want.
 
Since this is Doug's thread, I've been hesitant to add content.
My situation is totally different. I still work a day job, come home and decouple for an hour or so, then try to work from 7 till 10 or 11. Some weeknights it just doesn't happen due to something at the house needing fixed or some other issue. I spend most of the day on Saturday and Sunday in the shop. One main difference is that aside from my offset body style, I'll build anything that you want and let the customer have input with the design. That in itself doesn't lend well to production numbers at all. Plus this winter is killing me for working in the shop. If it's 30 degrees out, I can get it warm enough to work, but for the past two months it's been single digit cold. More heat is planned for next year though. If I were to put a number per year of guitars I could build, it would be 12, but I would be pretty burned out getting to that quantity and a full time day job.

One thing I'd like to add is that "precision machined with a CNC" doesn't mean ready for paint. Especially when you get a piece that wants to fuzz up. It means that you are starting with pieces that have all of the features straight and properly located. Lots and lots of hand work left to do. Another thing is that no two blanks machine up the same, so anything that needs a precision fit such as a neck pocket gets done by hand scraping to size.

I end up with a little more time in each guitar than Doug, but honestly it's pretty hard to gauge times with how I'm running. I'll work on a neck or fret job for a few hours, but I need to take a break and return to it the next day and finish. It's kind of like recording a part then listening to it the next day. Sometimes there are things that are bugging me about the neck, but a fresh look the next day reveals that I was dwelling on nothing.

Both Doug and I run near identical in parts prices. Premium parts are not cheap and there is no gain in skimping out on a cheap component.

I'm just a one man shop aside from paint. I work with a local body shop when I need something painted. Painted and buffed costs me $300-$350 depending how much pearl is in the paint. And I can get any color imaginable painted since he has a mixing system. You might think this seems high, but I don't have to have a paint booth, guns, etc. if I was painting myself, I'd have between $75 and $100 in materials.
 
I appreciate seeing Doug's explanation of material and labor as well as Tele's comparison because Doug is making these boutique guitars for a living and has developed streamlined processes to get more standardized times for each step. Tele's business is in its infancy and, by nature of the part time work, going to incur more start-stop time.

The common thread between the two is a passion and eye for detail that is above and beyond the mass produced import instruments.

Not everyone can afford a Ferrari or Porsche.... but that doesn't mean they shouldn't make them, or should water them down to be more affordable. They stretch the imagination of what is possible and what builders should strive to do on everything they make. Almost every new "standard" feature added to the engine, suspension, and electronics of a regular consumer car started out years before as a high performance add on. ABS braking and electronic shifting were tens of thousands of dollars as add ons to the high end euro cars when they were developed, and years later they're part of the standard features of the everyman car.

Instead of wincing at the prices of these custom instruments, we need to thank the courageous individuals who are developing what tomorrow's players will expect day to day.
 
baimun said:
Instead of wincing at the prices of these custom instruments, we need to thank the courageous individuals who are developing what tomorrow's players will expect day to day.
Click to expand...


I agree 98% of the time. Some folks are STILL gonna get winced at though :tongue:
 
telecaster911 said:
Since this is Doug's thread, I've been hesitant to add content.
My situation is totally different. I still work a day job, come home and decouple for an hour or so, then try to work from 7 till 10 or 11. Some weeknights it just doesn't happen due to something at the house needing fixed or some other issue. I spend most of the day on Saturday and Sunday in the shop. One main difference is that aside from my offset body style, I'll build anything that you want and let the customer have input with the design. That in itself doesn't lend well to production numbers at all. Plus this winter is killing me for working in the shop. If it's 30 degrees out, I can get it warm enough to work, but for the past two months it's been single digit cold. More heat is planned for next year though. If I were to put a number per year of guitars I could build, it would be 12, but I would be pretty burned out getting to that quantity and a full time day job.

One thing I'd like to add is that "precision machined with a CNC" doesn't mean ready for paint. Especially when you get a piece that wants to fuzz up. It means that you are starting with pieces that have all of the features straight and properly located. Lots and lots of hand work left to do. Another thing is that no two blanks machine up the same, so anything that needs a precision fit such as a neck pocket gets done by hand scraping to size.

I end up with a little more time in each guitar than Doug, but honestly it's pretty hard to gauge times with how I'm running. I'll work on a neck or fret job for a few hours, but I need to take a break and return to it the next day and finish. It's kind of like recording a part then listening to it the next day. Sometimes there are things that are bugging me about the neck, but a fresh look the next day reveals that I was dwelling on nothing.

Both Doug and I run near identical in parts prices. Premium parts are not cheap and there is no gain in skimping out on a cheap component.

I'm just a one man shop aside from paint. I work with a local body shop when I need something painted. Painted and buffed costs me $300-$350 depending how much pearl is in the paint. And I can get any color imaginable painted since he has a mixing system. You might think this seems high, but I don't have to have a paint booth, guns, etc. if I was painting myself, I'd have between $75 and $100 in materials.
Click to expand...
Thanks Tele...:Wave:
 
Help!I'maRock! said:
solution: get better, save your money, buy the guitar you want.
Click to expand...
See, that's the point...I wanted every guitar I have, but still find myself wanting the upgrade...I sometimes have a hard time rationalizing to myself having as many as I do, then have a hard time rationalizing an upgrade...

...or am I just going insane?
 
I have another finish that I'm experimenting with. Wrapping, like a car wrap. Got a little buckle rash? Re-wrap it. Want to go from skulls to unicorns? Re-wrap it. You want Star Wars this year and super Heros next year? You get the idea. It all depends on what it does to the sound. Doing some tests wrapped and unwrapped. This won't be for everyone for sure. But I think it will have a small place for some folks.
 
I have another finish that I'm experimenting with. Wrapping, like a car wrap. Got a little buckle rash? Re-wrap it. Want to go from skulls to unicorns? Re-wrap it. You want Star Wars this year and super Heros next year? You get the idea. It all depends on what it does to the sound. Doing some tests wrapped and unwrapped. This won't be for everyone for sure. But I think it will have a small place for some folks.
 
There's a lot to reply here and I don't want to use up space with quotes so bear with me:

@jelloman : You're absolutely spot on about time. I tried to keep it strictly to estimates for actual hands on time but you that doesn't count the time on both sides of the equation. Especially in the booth. There's lots of material prep time, clean up time, booth maintenance ect.

I try to keep a 2-3 in, 2-3 out a week rule in the booth. The reality is again, this is actually a hard thing to do being a 1.5 man shop. As hard as I try, some "bubble" always develops and things and interrupts the flow. Same for assembly, I'd really like to assemble 2-3 guitars a week (10 guitars a month, 100-120 a year) but because things like pickups, tuners ect tend to show up in batches, sometimes I can, sometimes it's more like 4-6 every other week.

Then there's the time I lose just trying to generate sales. This usually involves answering a million emails at all times through the day. I wish I could just leave them to answer once a day or at night but because of the volume I get, if I don't generally try to answer them in batches of 3-4 I'll easily forget to reply later that night.

Here's a hint (for any small business): If you are going to email or call with questions, please be serious about purchasing. Nothing is more frustrating than having an hour or more involved in email exchanges or phone calls that takes you away from working on customers work only to end with "well it's more than I can afford/do right now/my wife would murder me/some other line of bullshit". The prices are posted CLEARLY right on my website.

I totally understand wanting to plan things for future purchases or saving up for them, that's great but try to be understanding of the other persons time. People tend to think of emails as this "oh it only eats 30 seconds of their day" so they will email constantly. The reality is, it's RARELY 30 seconds, it pulls me off work I need to be doing and if everyone thinks that, thats why I get 5-20 an hour. I probably spend 15-20 minutes of every hour just keeping up on contact. You know the scene in Office Space where Peter is telling the Bob's how when he screws up he has to hear it from 5 different bosses... that's what email can be like. LOL

@Peeker Get a real job hippy! No seriously, you must be a luthier too because thats about what my annual income is too :wink: (trust me, I feel for you)

@telecaster911 you are spot on about the CNC. They come off my machine rough. There is so much hand work involved still that it would boggle your mind. Now my main machine is 14 years old, running an italian version of windows 95 with 16k of ram. It's an Atari of CNC's but it's repeatable and besides complex 3d work it's a workhorse. Someone on another forum said something truly insightful: rather than bitch about hand built vs CNC, maybe we should look at the reality that the kids (and I mean kids) who really figure out how to do innovative things with a CNC machine that can not be duplicated by hand will truly be the next wave of artisans. Couldn't agree more.

BTW you are smart to sub out the finishing. It's 2-3 WEEKS of my time. Honestly, there is a "luthier" that is held in high regards around here that simply is not. The bodies and necks are made by one company, they are finished by another and assembled by a third. The "luthier" simply does sales and presents the front that he is the builder when the reality is, and I've seen in person, he doesn't even turn a screw driver on the guitars. Now is this bad? Up to you really. Does he make more money for his time than I do? Absolutely. His job is simply to sell guitars and handle logistics.

I'm just a stubborn ass control freak who likes doing everything in house. LOL

@baimun : I totally agree. I've said it many times, on here included, the amount of quality guitars at 1000 or less out there is staggering. Honestly, I feel like my fit and finish is about 90-95% of where I'd like to be. That last 5% is damn hard to get. I'll look at a 600 dollar import and it'll be totally mirror flat, everything is great. Sure the finish is 1/8" thick or more and it was built by borderline slave labor but sometimes it puts my best efforts to shame. Your analogy is perfect because if you've ever really seen a Lambo or Ferrari up close, you'd find that most of them have a few little handmade fit and finish issues too. (Though the last ten years or so have seen them become damn near impeccable too).
 
dougk said:
Now my main machine is 14 years old, running an italian version of windows 95 with 16k of ram. It's an Atari of CNC's but it's repeatable and besides complex 3d work it's a workhorse.
Click to expand...

Little label on the back of the guitar "Body by Atari" :grin:


dougk said:
I'll look at a 600 dollar import and it'll be totally mirror flat, everything is great. Sure the finish is 1/8" thick or more and it was built by borderline slave labor but sometimes it puts my best efforts to shame. Your analogy is perfect because if you've ever really seen a Lambo or Ferrari up close, you'd find that most of them have a few little handmade fit and finish issues too. (Though the last ten years or so have seen them become damn near impeccable too).
Click to expand...

I absolutely loathe thick poly finishes. It's to the point where super smooth shiny finishes make me naturally assume that the finish is thicker than my liking. I actually prefer finishes like Tru-Oil because you would never see a violin that just had poly glopped on and sanded smooth. It's always a french polish that its only job is to protect the wood from moisture, but is supposed to be thin and let the wood do its work. I like when an instrument feels like it's crafted of wood, not something that looks like wood inside a candy plastic shell.
 
There is that @baimun and that's a lot of what you are paying for on a boutique built guitar.

I use 2k Urethanes. It's not a poly, it's final build thickness is thinner than when I sprayed nitro. It's hard enough that I can put less material on the surface before leveling and sanding without burning thru.

The import guitars with the thick poly? They make up for sloppy prep work (ie: time intensive) by spraying that goop on, leveling it then going onto color and clear.... which they also goop on super thick so they can be sloppy with the final work with out fear of burning thru.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top