I found a forum that hates Tom Waits more than our own.

rickenvox said:
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You Googled those photos.
 
rickenvox said:
No I have original photos of the Original New Orleans Jass Band sitting around my house. Yes you have to google photos, but everyone should know about the history of New Orleans jazz.
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New Orleans jazz...as invented by Jimmy Durante and a bunch of white dudes.

PROBLEMATIC TRIGGER WARNING: It’s weird how black and rural and southern voices are granted “authenticity” which suggests that they are not contrived or artistically created but rather occur naturally. This conception strips agency from the artist and reduces these individuals to little more than conduits for some kind of native instinct vs. viewing these folks as active, creative, business-savvy performers and entertainers and crafts-people. Similarly, this divide alienates middle class, elite, educated, etc. artists from their expression by attributing everything they do to contrivance and appropriation.
 
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Yeah, the appropriciation or invocation of a historical style - pastiche, in other words - is not the same thing as cultural appropriation.
 
Peen Simmons said:
That is fine. Why you had to resort to the idiot’s gambit of the “authenticity appeal” I don’t know.
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It's just more glaring with Waits. Anyway, people always cite Woody Guthrie or Pete Seeger or Jack Elliot as direct influences on Dylan, or models for him to copy. But show me a song by any one of them that sounds anything like Dylan from Bringing It All Back Home on.

And I didn't resort to it, it's the first thing that will come to mind if you introduce his music to anyone who is 1) familiar with Americana music, and 2) has never heard him before. It's science.
 
Peen Simmons said:
New Orleans jazz...as invented by Jimmy Durante and a bunch of white dudes.
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Didn't say that, but you've heard of Bix Beiderbecke? Jack Teagarden? They and the Original New Orleans Jazz Band are all considered originators of dixieland/New Orleans jazz right along with their black contemporaries. You should know that.
 
rickenvox said:
It's just more glaring with Waits. Anyway, people always cite Woody Guthrie or Pete Seeger or Jack Elliot as direct influences on Dylan, or models for him to copy. But show me a song by any one of them that sounds anything like Dylan from Bringing It All Back Home on.

And I didn't resort to it, it's the first thing that will come to mind if you introduce his music to anyone who is 1) familiar with Americana music, and 2) has never heard him before. It's science.
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Dylan borrowed so much of his electric sound from Chicago blues. And he was doing some pretty clear mashups of old country, the Brit Invasion sound and the Harry Smith anthology after he plugged in.
 
rickenvox said:
Didn't say that, but you've heard of Bix Beiderbecke? Jack Teagarden? They and the Original New Orleans Jazz Band are all considered originators of dixieland/New Orleans jazz right along with their black contemporaries. You should know that.
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I’m giving you a hard time. I’ve tried long and hard to forget about goddamn Bix Beiderbecke and now here you are bringing him up again.
 
Peen Simmons said:
New Orleans jazz...as invented by Jimmy Durante and a bunch of white dudes.

PROBLEMATIC TRIGGER WARNING: It’s weird how black and rural and southern voices are granted “authenticity” which suggests that they are not contrived or artistically created but rather occur naturally. This conception strips agency from the artist and reduces these individuals to little more than conduits for some kind of native instinct vs. viewing these folks as active, creative, business-savvy performers and entertainers and crafts-people. Similarly, this divide alienates middle class, elite, educated, etc. artists from their expression by attributing everything they do to contrivance and appropriation.
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The situation in New Orleans is unique and completely different that any other city musical movements originated in the U.S. Jazz was the synthesis of black music and European brass bands. Jelly Roll Morton prided himself as a creole with white ancestry until laws changed in New Orleans treating him as equal with all other blacks. He wasn't exactly the model of black pride. So the cultural landscape during that time is complicated, and whites played a integral part in the formation of jazz although they were not the dominant culture in that music.
 
And Guthrie didn’t just influence Dylan. Dylan did his fucking act for a few years. He basically was a tribute to Woody when he was getting his start. All the “authentic” folkies thought it was pretty shameless.
 
rickenvox said:
The situation in New Orleans is unique and completely different that any other city musical movements originated in the U.S. Jazz was the synthesis of black music and European brass bands. Jelly Roll Morton prided himself as a creole with white ancestry until laws changed in New Orleans treating him as equal with all other blacks. He wasn't exactly the model of black pride. So the cultural landscape during that time is complicated, and whites played a integral part in the formation of jazz although they were not the dominant culture in that music.
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Thanks, gramps. But you kinda missed my overall point. And yeah...New Orleans is complicated.
 
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