Getting Back into Music and thinking of digital.

B

BrammyH

Grandpa Whine
Hi all,

It's been quite a well since I've posted. Hope you are doing well.

After a long haitus from making music, I am getting back into the swing of things. My last band died ~2016 or so. I am going to be 60 this year and don't really have a ton of energy and desire for a music more than a bunch of old farts screwing around.

I've got my regular amp (Egnator Tweaker) in my office with my smaller pedalboard. This board has:
  • Custom Badass '78 Distortion
  • MXR Phaser
  • Boss Chorus
  • TC Mini Delay
  • Spark Boost.
This setup gives me a good classic rock sound. But at times I also want a face-melting ENGL sound. It's fine, other than for practice I'll just plug into my Mac and use NAM or Amplitude. In the time honored tradition of solving problems that don't exist, I'd like my practice setup to mirror what I'd do with other folks.

Now, the solution to this may just be throwing my Metal Zone on the board and switch between that and the '78. Looking at how far digital has come is making me think of just going straight digital.

My budget is around $799. Bonus points if I can get it on Amazon since my CC gives me Amazon Points I can use for purchases.

Where this long winded post is going is it looks like the Helix Stomp is the best option for me. I'd need to watch some videos on how the setup works to make it easy to bounce between presets. The other one I am considering is the Fractal VP4 but that one doesn't do amp modeling.

I also thinking the Neural DSP stuff isn't going to work for me since I want amps AND effects.

Any advice at all?
 
I think the HX Stomp is probably the way to go. It has just about everything you can think of and once you get used to how it's laid out it's pretty easy to get around on. If you're going to be playing it with other folks you'd either need a PA to plug it into or some kind of FRFR speaker designed for it (if you want to use the amp modeling).

If you just want to use effects through the Egnator you could get the HX Effects, but the Stomp has everything the Effects has and I don't think it really costs that much more...
 
I have a L6 HX Stomp. It certainly can get the job done. However, the Stomp goes for $699 new which only leaves you with $100 for an amplified speaker. Usually, when people want to use digital modeling (including amp and speaker sims) live, they use an FRFR amplified speaker with the modeler. This is part of the reason digital modeling amps are popular, they have everything built into one box (modeler, amp, FRFR speaker). What existing gear were you planning to use with the HX Stomp?

I'm not familiar with the Egnator Tweaker amp. If the Egnator has an FX Loop, you could feed the HX into the FX return (bypassing the Egnator preamp). The HX would act as the preamp and FX, the Egnator as the amp and speaker. You'd typically turn off the speaker sims within the HX because the Egnator already has the speaker part covered. Typically, the Egnator would not be nearly as loud in this configuration, so it may not even be loud enough for jam sessions.

As @smurfco posted, you could use the HX as an FX-only unit (amp and speaker sims turned off). The HX works great that way. Digital amp sims don't usually sound good combined with a traditional tube amp, unless you bypass the tube preamp. And, using speaker sims through a guitar speaker can end up with strange EQ curves. If the Egnator has an FX Loop, 4 cable method allows placing digital FX in front of the preamp or after it, for maximum versatility.
 
jrockbridge said:
I have a L6 HX Stomp. It certainly can get the job done. However, the Stomp goes for $699 new which only leaves you with $100 for an amplified speaker. Usually, when people want to use digital modeling (including amp and speaker sims) live, they use an FRFR amplified speaker with the modeler. This is part of the reason digital modeling amps are popular, they have everything built into one box (modeler, amp, FRFR speaker). What existing gear were you planning to use with the HX Stomp?

I'm not familiar with the Egnator Tweaker amp. If the Egnator has an FX Loop, you could feed the HX into the FX return (bypassing the Egnator preamp). The HX would act as the preamp and FX, the Egnator as the amp and speaker. You'd typically turn off the speaker sims within the HX because the Egnator already has the speaker part covered. Typically, the Egnator would not be nearly as loud in this configuration, so it may not even be loud enough for jam sessions.

As @smurfco posted, you could use the HX as an FX-only unit (amp and speaker sims turned off). The HX works great that way. Digital amp sims don't usually sound good combined with a traditional tube amp, unless you bypass the tube preamp. And, using speaker sims through a guitar speaker can end up with strange EQ curves. If the Egnator has an FX Loop, 4 cable method allows placing digital FX in front of the preamp or after it, for maximum versatility.
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I can see them for $599 on Amazon, and my Amazon Credit will eventually offset most of the price. Getting an FRFR speaker would be more of a future purchase anyway. I'm 6 months easy from even wanting to jam with other people. I haven't played for more than just a noodle in a decade.

The likely option is I'd just run a line into my Mac from the Stomp via my Audio Input Device. Then I'd just use Logic or something to see the interface. I'll load iTunes to play along with what I want to learn. That said, honestly since I just use the Egnator as a clean amp I could just run the whole pedalboard in this way.

Thanks for the input.

Edit: There is, honestly, also an appeal to the joy of messing with pedals.
 
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BrammyH said:
I can see them for $599 on Amazon, and my Amazon Credit will eventually offset most of the price. Getting an FRFR speaker would be more of a future purchase anyway. I'm 6 months easy from even wanting to jam with other people. I haven't played for more than just a noodle in a decade.

The likely option is I'd just run a line into my Mac from the Stomp via my Audio Input Device. Then I'd just use Logic or something to see the interface. I'll load iTunes to play along with what I want to learn. That said, honestly since I just use the Egnator as a clean amp I could just run the whole pedalboard in this way.

Thanks for the input.
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In that case, the HX Stomp is perfect. You don't even need an audio interface. The HX can hook straight into Mac via USB. It can be used as an audio interface. In fact, you'll want to load the Line 6 software into your Mac from their website (HX Edit & Firmware), hook the HX to the Mac via USB and update the firmware on the HX to get all the latest amp and FX sims.

If later, you decide you want to use the HX Stomp to jam with others, you can get a powered FRFR at that time. Or you can use it FX-only into Egnator. Personally, I've mainly used my Stomp for recording direct to PC, or as a multi-FX unit with my tube amps. I use my Mac mini for updating the HX firmware. For occasional jam sessions with friends, I grab my PT Nano board with a few pedals on it, one of my amp heads, and a 112 cab.
 
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You mentioned face-melting Engl sound. The Angl Meteor is one of the better amp models in the HX Stomp. It's actually good for clean, lower gain, and face-melting.

A clip of the Angl Meteor model (Engl Fireball 100) full sized Helix. High gain starts at 4:41....
 
jrockbridge said:
You mentioned face-melting Engl sound. The Angl Meteor is one of the better amp models in the HX Stomp. It's actually good for clean, lower gain, and face-melting.

A clip of the Angl Meteor model (Engl Fireball 100) full sized Helix. High gain starts at 4:41....
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Thanks. This is helpful.
 
A couple variables to consider.... How much do you want to be able to do with knob tweaking versus poking at menus on a touch screen versus using a computer or ipad connection?

Also... it sounds like you are a variety of pedals in front of a single channel amp guy... I've always been more of a different amps with a handful of cool effects guy.

The younger generations who like to build and tweak their rigs like Lego sets seem to gravitate to the Line6 and Helix workflow.... dropping video game icons of a pedal board signal chain and then tweaking. Liking amps and knobs, I gravitated to the Kemper world being able to get (IMO) better sounding amps that you tweak and fuss with the amps less, but are a bit more limited than the ones that can stack dozens of effects and a different amp right or left (which is too fussy for my tastes anyways).

Once I went back to a tube amp (but with different IRs out for direct to board) I sold the big Kemper rack for the palm sized Player model. That one is in your price range and has all the great sounds of the bigger unit.... However... I find that you really need to plug it into the computer to properly be able to edit and tweak the sounds. Like on the face, you'll only see two effects slots that are on off... but you can have 4-8 effects before the "amp" and 4 more in the loop. The slots on the front are assignable to the ones you want to be able to toggle on/off or tweak on the fly.

All that said... you're in a prime time where you can get some killer stuff for not a lot of money and have it sound fantastic through any size speaker or headphone. Don't sleep on some of the free or inexpensive options that are out there... I have a little NUX pedal that can hold several IRs and sits at the end of my board where it can do nothing most of the time, but can be a backup or practice amp with a patch cord after the rest of the pedals. It was like $50. :helper:
 
@BrammyH Found another option that you might consider...

1778250199576.png

 
Thanks for the replies, and that is interesting. @baimun.

So far, the HX Stomp is in the lead for digital.
baimun said:
A couple variables to consider.... How much do you want to be able to do with knob tweaking versus poking at menus on a touch screen versus using a computer or ipad connection?
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Yah, this is kinda the existential question. I do enjoy pedals, and I like messing with them. But, I also like practicing with headphones on. There is a part of me that is thinking of getting a distortion pedal with a little more meat than the '78 Badass but the same type of gritty tone.
 
BrammyH said:
So far, the HX Stomp is in the lead for digital.
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Since you’re planning to use the HX Stomp with your Mac, HX Edit software makes building and editing patches intuitive.

Below is a screen shot of HX Edit. The large Helix floor units allow more blocks of amps, cabs and fx. This is an example of dual amp and fx signal chains. The HX Stomp only allows 8 blocks (amp, custom IR, fx). So, the signal chains are much simpler. If you use Helix amp sim+cab sim, that only takes up 1 block. Custom speaker IR’s can be loaded in the Stomp, but that takes up an extra block (HX amp sim + custom IR + 6 fx blocks).

My signal chains are typically single amp, single cab +fx. But, I often put a stereo effect at the end. Or, I’ll split into stereo near the end of the chain and do dual cabs. Some of my patches are dual amps+cabs with 3 fx per side. In a DAW, you can always add more fx with plugins.

IMG_4141.jpeg
 
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BrammyH said:
Thanks for the replies, and that is interesting. @baimun.

So far, the HX Stomp is in the lead for digital.


Yah, this is kinda the existential question. I do enjoy pedals, and I like messing with them. But, I also like practicing with headphones on. There is a part of me that is thinking of getting a distortion pedal with a little more meat than the '78 Badass but the same type of gritty tone.
Click to expand...

Honestly... I've never had any complaints about any of the Tech21nyc Flyrigs... I've owned 3 different models... still use the Acoustic one all the time and carry the Cali in my guitar case as a backup rig. I had the old RK5 model but am very interested in the newer model. They are all the essentials of a marshally-rig plus boost and effects pedals in a very compact package, can be used with headphones, into an amp, or direct depending on settings. I'm interested in getting the newest model with the effects loop and built in tuner. Tech21nyc RK5 v3 $399 at Sweetwater.

1778264181881.png
 
Just to make this a little more confusing, let me throw the BOSS GX line into the mix. I love the GX-100, and there’s a 10 and a 1 with the same sounds but a little less tweakability. I found the tones more to my liking than the Line6 stuff, and the workflow is way more intuitive. Plus it has a cool touchscreen.
 
baimun said:
I'm interested in getting the newest model with the effects loop and built in tuner. Tech21nyc RK5 v3 $399 at Sweetwater.
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Yeah, this is one of those things that keeps coming up on my radar. I do wish it had a chorus.
It is very, very tempting. The thing I'm afraid of with the other digital options is I'll end up with like 50 patches that are some sublte form of hard rock sound
Can it go out to an FRFR speaker? But it looks like it would work good as just part of my main pedalboard.
 
baimun said:
Honestly... I've never had any complaints about any of the Tech21nyc Flyrigs... I've owned 3 different models... still use the Acoustic one all the time and carry the Cali in my guitar case as a backup rig. I had the old RK5 model but am very interested in the newer model. They are all the essentials of a marshally-rig plus boost and effects pedals in a very compact package, can be used with headphones, into an amp, or direct depending on settings. I'm interested in getting the newest model with the effects loop and built in tuner. Tech21nyc RK5 v3 $399 at Sweetwater.

View attachment 120663
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I have the original version of the RK5 and find it very useful. In fact, on Monday I'm going to be hosting the monthly meeting of a local music club (most folks do medieval, classical, showtunes, etc. - I do rock and punk) and will be "going electric for the first time with that bunch. I'll be doing a medley of instrumental surf-y tunes and playing/singing "Secret Agent Man" and all I'm using is the RK5 into a Wangs VT-5 HW. It gets me what I need with a minimum of fuss.
 
The advantages of Tech 21 Fly Rigs are simplicity, analog feel, minimal setup. The disadvantages are variety of amps and fx. No complex fx signal chains. No dual amps. @BrammyH asked for Engl tones which the Fly Rigs cannot deliver. The closest model is the Cali which is more like a Mesa amp, not a tight Engl amp sound.

The Sonulab StompStation PRO is very strong in terms of realistic amp feel and sound. It has 3 foot switches and 5 button dials. It uses NAM (Neural Amp Models) captures. It’s an open source engine and file system. It can nail an Engl at a specific setting. Captures are like a snapshot of an amp at a certain setting of eq, gain volume, etc. The disadvantage is that you can’t adjust a snapshot of an amp like a real amp. There is some ability to adjust the sound in small ways. A NAM capture is kinda like a very high resolution photo, very realistic, great detail, but it’s not highly editable. The most obvious downside, besides the limitation of the whole capture paradigm,are no dual, amps, limited fx, no complex fx chains.

The Kemper Profiler player is another capture-snapshot type of paradigm. One of its advantages is tactile. Along with 3 foot switches, it has 11 buttons, and 8 dials. The engine and profile file system is NOT open source. It’s proprietary tech. Since it was the 1st to introduce this profile/capture paradigm, it’s a very mature product line. So, there are a plethora of amp captures out there. It can nail an Engl at a specific setting. It will feel and sound very realistic as long as you don’t try to change a profile snapshot too much. It has a wider variety of fx than the Sonulab. Some disadvantages, can’t adjust profiles like a real amp, no dual amps, simple fixed fx chain order, no complex fx routing.

Both the Boss GX10 and Line 6 HX Stomp are modelers rather than profiles (or captures). So, instead of a snapshot of an amp at a specific setting, they try to emulate the entire amp with full adjustability. They won’t give you the accuracy of a profile or capture, but they offer more flexibility.

The strength of the GX10 is the ease of use in a live situation. It’s easier adjusting from the box on the fly. The touch screen helps make operation intuitive. 3 foot switches, 6 buttons, 6 dial/buttons, a touch screen, and an expression pedal. Can it nail Engl? Boss aims for a generic ballpark, so you can get a very good Engl-ish sound. Excellent delays and modulation. It allows dual amps, complex routing including dual parallel fx in stereo. I believe you can do dual amps in series or parallel + 14 fx. Its downfall is realism. It’s not the most accurate feel and sound, but it’s very intuitive. Bang for the buck, it has a ton of functionality and power.

The Line 6 HX Stomp packs a lot of power into a small box. The amp models feel and sound pretty accurate when adjusted well, but not as good as a profile or capture device (Sonulab & Kemper). HX has a plethora of amp and fx models. It’s the deepest fx unit of all the boxes mentioned in this thread. It can nail an Engl Fireball. 3 multifunction foot switches, 7 butttons, 6 dials, and a color display. It can do dual amps in series or parallel including complex signal chains. It’s easy to build patches on a computer because the software is excellent. It’s downfall is the workflow on the box itself. It’s not the easiest to adjust on the fly in a live situation. There’s some menu diving. And, the box is limited to 8 blocks total.

Personally, I like the profile/capture paradigm for amps and cabs because it avoids endless tweaking. It’s actually detrimental to tweak with that paradigm because adjusting often makes the snapshot feel and sound worse. You find a capture you like, stick with it, and add fx to the chain. I did not mention that I use a ToneX One capture device with my HX Stomp because I didn’t want to muddy the waters. The ToneX One sounds great for cheap, but the workflow is a hassle, and the integration with computer is not great.

Each of these boxes has strengths. I’m sure you can get good sounds out of any of them. I like tube, analog and digital tech.
 
Thanks again for all the input. I'm not getting anything until late winter at any rate. My first goal is to just get back into playing shape and while the retail therapy is undeniable, a new digital rig doesn't solve any immediate problems. Well, unless it's a truly magical box that can be back to where I was in a week. :). It's been 10 years since I've done more than run through chord changes between meetings.

As I mentioned upthread, I'm hitting 60 this year. I've noticed this year my stamina is truly failing. There is a local gaming con I go to every year. 10 years ago, I could play/run 32 hours of games over 3 days. I'd need to take 2 days off to recover. Now, playing half that at most, I need the two days to recover. I have exactly zero interest in getting into a gigging band. Were I however, younger and in a band I needed the variety of tones and less fuss, I'd go 100% digital in a heartbeat. My ex brother in law used to play in one of the regions biggest 80s cover bands. That would be perfect for digital. I'd get two of whatever model I chose and keep them in sync as a backup. However, this is also a good use case for digital. I was mentioning to my wife I could go to rehearsal with my guitar, pedalboard, and FRFR speaker and not throw my back into traction.

I'm targetting spring to look at playing with other musicians. I'm not in a rush and during this process I can do the necessary soul-searching to figure out the type of music I want to play. Am I as much of a metal-head as I think I am? Or or is the type of metal I like (Judas Priest, etc.) these days considered more of a classic hard rock? This is out of scope for this thread anyway. :)

Yesterday, scrolling through Google I came across a HX Stomp model of Mike Ness's tone. It did indeed, capture his tone pretty decent. But having a digital model of a guitar player who still enjoys vinyl just sounded so wrong on so many levels. I also like crafting a sound with pedals and settings rather than downloading a tone someone made.
 
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