24 years. Let's argue about whether grunge was good or bad again.

I know I have a clear BIAS since I knew a lot of those guys personally and watching them self-destruct after having their dreams come true really tainted the whole experience for me.



Having said all of that, the triple bill of Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and RHCP fresh upon the release of BSSM, and smack in the middle of Nirvana and PJ's skyrocketing fame was truly one for the ages. You can't contain that much raw energy in one building, in one night. It was epic.

Yeah, the self destruction was part of the story, which must not be forgotten as the world hoists Cobain on a rock jesus crucifix. I personally loved his version of the art, and will forgive him his sins, given his reality. But the full reality needs to be remembered. Heroin is bad, m'kay?

And yes. It was a lot of raw energy, that was largely unfiltered and honest. And that was what made it so awesome.
 
WTF is wrong with you people? Umm, yeah — there was never any problem with drugs in music until Grunge. Fuck right off with that...
yes, of course. There was a whole thing somewhere where it counted all the rock celebrities that died at 27. But, it was not a positive outcome for many of the participants. As a friend on FB said, Kurt's choice may have been a good marketing decision, but it was not a good life choice. Frankly, I do not believe it was any sort of decision at all.
 
The foundation of many a small business in the inner cities!

Well that's all about addiction and supplying victims with their death sentence. Which applies to the drug of choice during the grunge scene. Why isn't there a music movement based on shrooms? Or peyote? Wait that was the Eagles.
 
What really irritates me is that the people who just can’t get past self-destructive behaviour and drug addiction from mentally ill artists are so often the exact same people who don’t think twice about dismissing Led Zeppelin’s plagiarism and pedophilia as something that was simply part of that world.

preaching to the choir sister
 
What really irritates me is that the people who just can’t get past self-destructive behaviour and drug addiction from mentally ill artists are so often the exact same people who don’t think twice about dismissing Led Zeppelin’s plagiarism and pedophilia as something that was simply part of that world.
To be clear, and I don't necessarily think you directing the comment at me, I absolutely can appreciate Kurt and the others for the gifts they gave to this world, despite addiction, that at least in some cases was likely pre-disposed upon them due to circumstances anyway. No not getting past anything. It is only part of an entire picture. The world and life is complex. To me, the Eagles and Zep have nothing to do with this conversation, and really are a stain on the whole discussion. Fuck those guys, really.
 
To be clear, and I don't necessarily think you directing the comment at me, I absolutely can appreciate Kurt and the others for the gifts they gave to this world, despite addiction, that at least in some cases was likely pre-disposed upon them due to circumstances anyway. No not getting past anything. It is only part of an entire picture. The world and life is complex. To me, the Eagles and Zep have nothing to do with this conversation, and really are a stain on the whole discussion. Fuck those guys, really.

it doesn't sound like you have a peaceful easy feeling brother
 
To be clear, and I don't necessarily think you directing the comment at me, I absolutely can appreciate Kurt and the others for the gifts they gave to this world, despite addiction, that at least in some cases was likely pre-disposed upon them due to circumstances anyway. No not getting past anything. It is only part of an entire picture. The world and life is complex. To me, the Eagles and Zep have nothing to do with this conversation, and really are a stain on the whole discussion. Fuck those guys, really.

No, absolutely not directed at you, just impatient with people who “can never enjoy their music because they had everything and pissed it all away” as though we’re dealing with anything other than sicknesses of various kinds.

Every single Cobain conversation ever.
 
No, absolutely not directed at you, just impatient with people who “can never enjoy their music because they had everything and pissed it all away” as though we’re dealing with anything other than sicknesses of various kinds.

Every single Cobain conversation ever.
Well, not mine. But good. I don't get how people can't understand that artists can have contributed wonderful things to this world and still be flawed human beings. In fact, some of the more flawed in terms of addiction (there are other ways of being flawed as you reference with your Eagles and Zep comment) gave more to the world that many that were more conventionally good, or okay, or normal, or whatever. But of course you know that. Preaching to the choir.
 
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I remember at the time it was just more rock to me when i first heard it. I did like most of it, but if I hadn't seen any of the videos of Kurt etc it could have been any of the rock bands making music at that time.
 
What really irritates me is that the people who just can’t get past self-destructive behaviour and drug addiction from mentally ill artists are so often the exact same people who don’t think twice about dismissing Led Zeppelin’s plagiarism and pedophilia as something that was simply part of that world.
I'll bite.

Don't know or care who your rant was directed at, doesn't matter.

Why?

Because "Context".

I'm not one to abide or overlook the things you mentioned such as plagiarism and worse. If you're guilty, fuck right off.

You're getting your panties bunched up over people who have a hard time reconciling attributes of a particular artist with that artists appeal to them... That's just asinine. I still see shit talk from people every damn day from people who hate Bono/U2 because they had the unmitigated gall to give their album away for free. Now that's something that is truly short sighted and baffling.

Personally, I could give fuck all about the likes of Amy Winehouse, Jim Morrison, Jimmy Hendrix etc when it comes to their demons, but none of them were a friend of mine. I'm all too familiar with mental illness as well, so I slightly resent your presumptions. All the formal education you can acquire still can't give you a clue about the reality of it as a sufferer.

I find your whole take on this matter both disingenuous and vapid, with a tip of the hat to willfully incindiary. No one has to justify their fucking opinions to you, Doctor.

I find it rather pathetic honestly, that a man of your education could be so pety and devoid of tact for the sake of taking pot shots at people you presume to be intellectually inferior. I hate to break it to you, but you're not always the smartest guy in the room. Maybe it's time you start to realize that.

I'm not attacking you, and I take no joy in any of this. I like you, but sometimes you're a Grade A Asshat.
 
Hi. I worked with these bands in the early 90's. My roommate in 1993-4 worked for Sub Pop, as did most of my friends, and I did some contract work for them on a few bands. These were basically my work-friends. So I consider myself well-informed.

Here are some things I'd like to say.

1. There's no such thing as "grunge." Just isn't. It was a word popularized by Vanity Fair, and is about as useful as saying "rap music." Please let me know if you'd like for me to clarify how Soundgarden did not like Nirvana's music, but loved Mudhoney, who didn't mind Pearl Jam, but the guys in Nirvana couldn't stand Pearl Jam and ....blah, blah, blah.

2. People who imagine they 'knew' Kurt Cobain from interviews and other media sources simply make fools of themselves. He was fairly nice, and bitchy, just like - wait for it - just about every other front man of a band I ever worked with, a very small number of oh, several thousand. However, he was a fantastic songwriter, and his terribly sad childhood came out in the music, which (as mentioned above) spoke to a lot of people. The people who crap on that remind me an awful lot of white people who labeled Howlin' Wolf "race music" as they 'got down' to Pat Boone.

3. If you are of a historical bent, you might find it interesting to look at the Billboard charts prior to Nevermind, and after. Michael Jackson > Nirvana > Smashing Pumpkins. I love MJ, but I'm puzzled that people on a guitar forum might be anything but profoundly grateful to people who chased Ace of Base away in favor of loud, distorted guitars.

4. Better still, the lurid money grab of Hookers n' Blow, Inc. (also known as the music industry) financed so much good rock music during those years. It's hard to imagine in the current environment, but even small labels could feasibly sell four- and five-figure #'s of releases of obscure bands like Don Caballero back then.

5. It's very easy for folks in hindsight to view concerns about "selling out" with self-righteous sanctimony, but believe it or not, some people did concern themselves with that. I won't accuse those folks of being deeply experience in the ways of the world, but most of the projected cynicism is actually that of the projector. I should know - I fucked myself over by 'avoiding selling out' several times, only to wish in hindsight that I had sold, and sold, and sold. Oops.

Ultimately, early 90's rock was a welcome blast of vigor that shoved aside tepid "R&B," as well as obliterating hair metal (thank God). So much of the music was so good, and I am profoundly grateful I got to have a front row seat. Lucky, lucky me.

I can tell you that I remember everything - everything - about hearing this for the first time in 1988. God bless them.
 
Hi. I worked with these bands in the early 90's. My roommate in 1993-4 worked for Sub Pop, as did most of my friends, and I did some contract work for them on a few bands. These were basically my work-friends. So I consider myself well-informed.

Here are some things I'd like to say.

1. There's no such thing as "grunge." Just isn't. It was a word popularized by Vanity Fair, and is about as useful as saying "rap music." Please let me know if you'd like for me to clarify how Soundgarden did not like Nirvana's music, but loved Mudhoney, who didn't mind Pearl Jam, but the guys in Nirvana couldn't stand Pearl Jam and ....blah, blah, blah.

2. People who imagine they 'knew' Kurt Cobain from interviews and other media sources simply make fools of themselves. He was fairly nice, and bitchy, just like - wait for it - just about every other front man of a band I ever worked with, a very small number of oh, several thousand. However, he was a fantastic songwriter, and his terribly sad childhood came out in the music, which (as mentioned above) spoke to a lot of people. The people who crap on that remind me an awful lot of white people who labeled Howlin' Wolf "race music" as they 'got down' to Pat Boone.

3. If you are of a historical bent, you might find it interesting to look at the Billboard charts prior to Nevermind, and after. Michael Jackson > Nirvana > Smashing Pumpkins. I love MJ, but I'm puzzled that people on a guitar forum might be anything but profoundly grateful to people who chased Ace of Base away in favor of loud, distorted guitars.

4. Better still, the lurid money grab of Hookers n' Blow, Inc. (also known as the music industry) financed so much good rock music during those years. It's hard to imagine in the current environment, but even small labels could feasibly sell four- and five-figure #'s of releases of obscure bands like Don Caballero back then.

5. It's very easy for folks in hindsight to view concerns about "selling out" with self-righteous sanctimony, but believe it or not, some people did concern themselves with that. I won't accuse those folks of being deeply experience in the ways of the world, but most of the projected cynicism is actually that of the projector. I should know - I fucked myself over by 'avoiding selling out' several times, only to wish in hindsight that I had sold, and sold, and sold. Oops.

Ultimately, early 90's rock was a welcome blast of vigor that shoved aside tepid "R&B," as well as obliterating hair metal (thank God). So much of the music was so good, and I am profoundly grateful I got to have a front row seat. Lucky, lucky me.

I can tell you that I remember everything - everything - about hearing this for the first time in 1988. God bless them.

I have nothing to add, just that I agree with all of this.
 
Does Alanis Morrisette count as post-grunge?
I don't know. But I will go on record as being uncomfortable with the labe "grunge" much less "post-grunge", though I used the former term in the OP. As others have said, the PNW bands that are lumped together under that label are pretty diverse.

Hi. I worked with these bands in the early 90's. My roommate in 1993-4 worked for Sub Pop, as did most of my friends, and I did some contract work for them on a few bands. These were basically my work-friends. So I consider myself well-informed.

Here are some things I'd like to say.

1. There's no such thing as "grunge." Just isn't. It was a word popularized by Vanity Fair, and is about as useful as saying "rap music." Please let me know if you'd like for me to clarify how Soundgarden did not like Nirvana's music, but loved Mudhoney, who didn't mind Pearl Jam, but the guys in Nirvana couldn't stand Pearl Jam and ....blah, blah, blah..

I can tell you that I remember everything - everything - about hearing this for the first time in 1988. God bless them.


I am interested in those tales if you have time to tell them some time. Either here, or via PM. We started a similar conversation long ago, but never finished it.
 
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