Question: Why do I want a Les Paul?

what's hyperbolic about "change your pickups first, it may do exactly what you want", or "everybody should find what they want and there's no one right answer."?

you're biased for what you grew up with. most people are, and absolutely refuse to accept change. everybody refuses change to a certain extent. i simply don't believe that there is one "be all, end all" instrument out there for everyone. what's right for you is not for me. for SOME PEOPLE that might be a Les Paul. for others, a pickup change may do. but without options, this world would be a dreary place.

you can continue to minimize my opinion in favor of what's "overwhelmingly popular". considering most of the companies mentioned in this thread sell thousands of guitars each year, "overwhelmingly popular" isn't really up for debate. they're all "overwhelmingly popular".

I see what you're saying, and it would make sense for some but in my case I never owned or even wanted one until my mid-20's, at which point I'd already been playing for close to 20 years. I thought I could get that sound elsewhere, and tried to, but never really nailed it until I got a Gibson. So I certainly did NOT grow up owning or wanting one.

And I still maintain that swapping the pickups should not be the first line of defense. If it didn't sound right, why'd you buy it?
 
Everyone hears with their eyes to some degree. But I can still hear (and feel, for that matter,) the differences among a Les Paul, SG, and any PRS I've played. I really wanted them all to sound the same, so I could use them interchangeably at gigs.

However, I don't think I could perceive it nearly as much when someone else is playing it, and especially not in the context of a full band.

Right, but they don't sound the same -- that's my point. Its pretty simple, quite frankly.
 
To be fair, Gibson has made a few changes over the years. I'm not sure what a typical LP is anymore.

Just changes that I can remember offhand:

from 17 to 14 back to 17 degree for the headstock pullback.
There are many different amounts of dishing for the maple top (depending on how worn the templates were).
Mahogany to Maple, back to Mahogany necks.
Number of pieces on the neck and body.
Weight relief and the patterns.
Pickups are all over the place, PAF's, T-Tops, Lawrence circuits, 57's, burstbuckers, the 400 series ceramics.
Capacitors and pots have changed manufacturers and values over the years also.

Sad thing (or good thing depending) for me is my favorite sounds are from the LP's from the Norlin era.
Guys like Sykes who killed with them.

Sure, and those things don't seem to have made as big of a difference as many wanted or expected them to. Add to that the lack of a maple cap and an addition of an ebony fingerboard on a Custom -- barely a difference.
 
I rarely plug in a guitar before I buy it. Feel is by far the most important thing for me. I can get just about any guitar to sound the way I want with eq or new pickups.

That's cool if you can do that. I have, however, played guitars that could not be "fixed" by that method -- some are just dogs, no matter what. Glad you've had good luck in that regard.
 
That's cool if you can do that. I have, however, played guitars that could not be "fixed" by that method -- some are just dogs, no matter what. Glad you've had good luck in that regard.

When I play those guitars that can't be fixed, I don't buy them. That is the main reason I try them out unplugged. A guitar that feels good and solid and also has a good acoustic tone is less likely to be a dog. You plug a guitar in and a good amp can mask the flaws.
 
I don't mean corners cut as in "less-than-good", I mean not making it the same way that matters.

"Well, we'll make it LIKE a Les Paul, but we'll change the scale length..."

"Well, we'll change the degree of pullback on the headstock..."

"Well, we'll put hotter pickups in it..."

I could go on, but....

The End.

To be fair, Gibson has made a few changes over the years. I'm not sure what a typical LP is anymore.

Just changes that I can remember offhand:

from 17 to 14 back to 17 degree for the headstock pullback.
There are many different amounts of dishing for the maple top (depending on how worn the templates were).
Mahogany to Maple, back to Mahogany necks.
Number of pieces on the neck and body.
Weight relief and the patterns.
Pickups are all over the place, PAF's, T-Tops, Lawrence circuits, 57's, burstbuckers, the 400 series ceramics.
Capacitors and pots have changed manufacturers and values over the years also.

Sad thing (or good thing depending) for me is my favorite sounds are from the LP's from the Norlin era.
Guys like Sykes who killed with them.

Sure, and those things don't seem to have made as big of a difference as many wanted or expected them to. Add to that the lack of a maple cap and an addition of an ebony fingerboard on a Custom -- barely a difference.

So it's ok for Gibson to change pickups, tops, pot values, species of wood, headstock angle, etc.; and not have it make anything more than a marginal difference. But if anybody else does it, there's no way it can sound remotely the same. That makes no sense.

I'm glad you found what you were looking for in a stock Les Paul. Many don't. Some don't find what they want in a Les Paul until it has a pickup change. Some find that pickup changes in other guitars negate the "necessity" of a Les Paul (I don't believe any guitar is a necessity). YMMV.
 
The point was that I've yet to find a suitable replacement for a LP, because pretty much everything else is close but no cigar. Regardless of the changes they've made over the years.

I have altered most of mine as well, in various ways. Myriad pickup changes, hardware, etc....still sounds like a LP.
 
The point was that I've yet to find a suitable replacement for a LP, because pretty much everything else is close but no cigar. Regardless of the changes they've made over the years.

I have altered most of mine as well, in various ways. Myriad pickup changes, hardware, etc....still sounds like a LP.

so under what conditions are a pickup change acceptable?
 
Hey, change em on alternate Thursdays for all I care. Go nuts. Just don't expect it to fix a bad guitar.

who said anything about a bad guitar?

you buy an instrument. it sounds great. but you want to tweak it so it sounds more like X. change the electronics. now it sounds like X. even if X is a Les Paul.

it's pretty simple.
 
You did. You said don't buy a Gibson because there are other guitars that will do the same thing. I said there aren't. That should pretty much be the end of the thread.
 
You did. You said don't buy a Gibson because there are other guitars that will do the same thing. I said there aren't. That should pretty much be the end of the thread.

Again, it's a matter of opinion. For some, "only a Gibson is good enough". For others, that's a buncha hooey. YMMV.
 
Um, no. It's not. Whether or not you like it is an opinion. Whether or not you can get the same thing elsewhere is not.
 
At the end of the day it's just a guitar...a plank of wood with some steel bits and electronic doohickeys attached to it...everything else is subjective...

...but by all means do carry on...
 
This argument can go in circles for ages. It's one of those arguments, it's part subjective and the objective part is a rare occasion where everyone can be right and everyone can be wrong.

There is a massive placebo effect at buying a genuine Gibson. The Latin origins of placebo are "to please". Many will find owning a genuine Gibson Les Paul "pleasing and reassuring" regardless of any "intrinsic, remedial value"....that's right out of the dictionary for placebo. Gibson makes a good instrument and they have the brand-equity and heritage that appeals to someone wanting to share in that rich history. These days people even argue in favor of poor aspects of a Gibson, like that they ground all the frets level but never crown them afterwards, as being more "authentic." Whatever. But that placebo effect is powerful and shouldn't be ignored, if someone wants a Gibson, they probably won't be happy until they have a Gibson, warts and all.

That said, the LP is an incredibly easy recipe of body thickness and correct dimensions. Get those right, even with a different shape, and it'll stand up to any double blind taste test hands down.

Humans don't hear anything objectively, to be able to process sensory information, we rely on perception to simplify our recognition and cataloging of data. Compare two LP-esque guitars and it's easier for our brain to focus on and enhance the differences between them, compare a dozen LP-esque guitars and it's much easier for our brains to draw the focus and and note the similarities between them. Ultimately, if you compare a Gibson, Huber, Max, Epiphone, Rogue, etc. in a large enough sample size, they all seem pretty damn similar. But, our conscious thought has a massive affect on our perception. If we expect to hear or see something, our brain will comply and say we do. The placebo effect relies heavily on this aspect of "where there is a will, there is a way." That's what lead to all those threads about Sozo caps. Now, everyone wants to believe they are the exception, their ears, eyes, taste buds, etc. are better, their more attuned to subtlety, they have better taste, etc. But they aren't. Two facts that are heavily repeated in market research texts...no one has ever consistently are identified Coke or Pepsi in those famous tastes tests, and no expensive speaker cable has ever consistently won a double-blind listening test (consistent meaning better than the margin of error).
 
Girls!

You're both pretty.

Geebus Henri Kristopherson.

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