What Do I Need?

[Johnny N.]

I'll explain my issues in idiot terms and see if you can help me figure out if I need to get something or do something different.

Ok, I use a Line 6 Toneport UX1 to record vocals with a Cobalt something or other dynamic mic into Reaper. Same issues existed when I used Ableton.

What happens is, I can never get the vocal volume level, and I assume corresponding input level high enough. I have to crank up the volume on the UX1 and bring the sliders way down on all of the other tracks and most of the way up on the vocal track to hear it well enough. This is with bypassing all of the presets in the UX1. If I dont bypass the presets, I still have a hard time getting enough volume if I take off some of the effects and just use the preamp. Anything I get enough volume from is over affected.

If I turn up the gain on the UX1, it is noticeable in a bad way. I didnt notice it that much but it has been pointed out on some of my coverfest entries that the gain was too high.

My thought was that if I had a different interface with phantom power and a condenser mic, I would have a better chance of getting volume and maybe better sound.

Or, am I just not doing something right to start with?

 

[paulskirocks]

Hmmm... I have the UX2, which I assume is pretty similar in function... Anyways, I sing through one of the guitar amps in the POD, but have it set to record dry... From there, since it was recorded dry, I can hardly hear it until I use some kind of VST devices to bring it back up, usually some kind of preamp and maybe a compressor/limiter...

 

[Prages]

You really shouldn't be having problems getting the recording level high enough with what you have.

Vocals are very tricky because they are VERY dynamic. You may have parts where the peaks are approaching 0db and other parts where you barely break -40db.

The best advice I can give you is to record the vocals at a level that are well below clipping. Once the track is recorded, then you can normalize it to -1db or so if it peaks way below that. Then use your compressor plugin to bring the overall level up.

You may still have to lower your sliders on everything else, but that's okay.

I usually have all my non-vocal sliders around -5db or lower. Then bring the vocals up to a good level. Make sure when you do it that you aren't going above 0db on any individual track, and even more importantly that your master bus isn't clipping.

If you had 10 tracks or so all running at or near 0db, I'm sure at some point two or more tracks are going to peak at the same time and push your master bus into clipping.

If, when you get it all mixed and sounding good, your master bus is way too quiet, that's fine. You shouldn't have a huge noise floor with digital recording, so you can always mix it quietly, then normalize/compress the stereo mix down. That's kind of the whole idea behind mastering. Get the track mixed right at a level that is not clipping anywhere, then you can handle making it louder/punchier/etc when you master the track.

 

[mosiddiqi]

What Prages said..

It is odd that you can't get enough volume..

I use the Guitar Rig Session interface, which does have phantom power, and I'm using a condenser mic for vocals..but still..

There is this short thread on the line6 site that sounds like a similar problem:

http://line6.com/supportarchive/thread/40817

 

[Prages]

Using a condensor really shouldn't be a factor in how loud you can get your vocals. You should have more than enough gain on your mic pre to push a dynamic mic right up and over the clipping threshhold.

A condensor mic might sound better but there's no reason that it would sound louder, given that you adjust the input gain so they are both peaking at around the same level.

 

[mosiddiqi]

Using a condensor really shouldn't be a factor in how loud you can get your vocals. You should have more than enough gain on your mic pre to push a dynamic mic right up and over the clipping threshhold.

A condensor mic might sound better but there's no reason that it would sound louder, given that you adjust the input gain so they are both peaking at around the same level.

Agreed..it sounds to me more of an issue with the line6 presets.....the line6 advice in that thread seems to be that the compressor HAS to be engaged and boosted a bit...

 

[Prages]

There is this short thread on the line6 site that sounds like a similar problem:

http://line6.com/supportarchive/thread/40817

Okay, I just read that thread.

Johnny, is your mic cable a 1/4" or an XLR? If it's 1/4", there's your problem.

The 1/4" input on the interface is operating at instrument level and doesn't go through a preamp. The XLR input would be what you want to use. That would route the signal through the mic pre.

 

[Prages]

Agreed..it sounds to me more of an issue with the line6 presets.....the line6 advice in that thread seems to be that the compressor HAS to be engaged and boosted a bit...

I think the guy in the thread is plugging his mic into the 1/4" input, which doesn't even have a mic pre. That's why he gets such low volume from it.

 

[mosiddiqi]

Okay, I just read that thread.

Johnny, is your mic cable a 1/4" or an XLR? If it's 1/4", there's your problem.

The 1/4" input on the interface is operating at instrument level and doesn't go through a preamp. The XLR input would be what you want to use. That would route the signal through the mic pre.

I think the guy in the thread is plugging his mic into the 1/4" input, which doesn't even have a mic pre. That's why he gets such low volume from it.

..comprehension...you haz it.

 

[Johnny N.]

I just went back in my song and normalized the vocal track and it, of course, made a huge difference. This would have been great to know a week ago. I understand the concept behind the compressor but not quite getting the feel for application yet.

I dont know if it was doing it before I normalized but now, no track is near clipping but the master is. If I bring down the slider on the master, it doesnt clip. So, am I correct to assume that I would need to bring that master slider down so it doesnt clip before rendering?

Sorry for the basic questions but the learning curve is steep and I think I just skipped over a lot of this initially and just hit record.

 

[Johnny N.]

Okay, I just read that thread.

Johnny, is your mic cable a 1/4" or an XLR? If it's 1/4", there's your problem.

The 1/4" input on the interface is operating at instrument level and doesn't go through a preamp. The XLR input would be what you want to use. That would route the signal through the mic pre.

Nah, its XLR. I think it is more my recording knowledge at this point. I am slowly getting there but I have to talk it out like this.

 

[Prages]

I dont know if it was doing it before I normalized but now, no track is near clipping but the master is. If I bring down the slider on the master, it doesnt clip. So, am I correct to assume that I would need to bring that master slider down so it doesnt clip before rendering?

Sorry for the basic questions but the learning curve is steep and I think I just skipped over a lot of this initially and just hit record.

There are two ways to approach it. If none of the individual tracks are clipping, you can just bring the master slider down until it isn't clipping.

Or, you can bring each of the individual tracks down, leaving the master at 0.

I've always been told that you should leave your master at 0, though I don't really know why, or if it really makes a difference in the digital world.

 

[Prages]

Nah, its XLR. I think it is more my recording knowledge at this point. I am slowly getting there but I have to talk it out like this.

Well, it sounds like you have the right equipment to get the job done, anyway.

Does the interface have an input level and an output level?

If so, is there something that tells you if your input level is clipping? This would be a meter or an led on the interface itself...not in your software. If so, you want to adjust the input level so that it's as loud as you can get it without clipping the mic pre. Then you can use the software meter and the output knob on the interface to bring that level up to where it's close to, but not clipping.

If the interface doesn't have both an input and output knob, (I can't find a picture that clearly shows the label on the knob over by the inputs), then just use the output knob and the software meter to set the volume as high as you can get it without being in danger of clipping.

And definitely do some playing around with compression. You'd be amazed at how much difference it makes on a vocal track once you figure out how it works and what you're trying to do with it.

 

[Johnny N.]

So now I brought the master bus slider up to 0 and put a compressor on the master. Is this acceptable? What about eq on the master?

 

[Johnny N.]

This unit has an output knob and a gain knob but no meter on the hardware. It has a meter in the software where you see the preamp. I always saw the output knob as a volume so I could hear it knob.

It is all starting to make more sense though. I appreciate the class.

 

[Prages]

This unit has an output knob and a gain knob but no meter on the hardware. It has a meter in the software where you see the preamp. I always saw the output knob as a volume so I could hear it knob.

It is all starting to make more sense though. I appreciate the class.

Does the output knob effect the signal in the software, or does it just effect the headphone output?

So now I brought the master bus slider up to 0 and put a compressor on the master. Is this acceptable? What about eq on the master?

You still want your master set so it isn't clipping even before you apply effects. After you do that, then yes, by all means you can use compression and EQ on the master. That is basically what 'mastering' is.

 

[Johnny N.]

Does the output knob effect the signal in the software, or does it just effect the headphone output?



.

I am pretty sure it will affect the signal but I'll have to verify that later. I think I have to monitor through Reaper whether or not it is clipping. Not sure the Line 6 gauges are precise or not.

Levels is definitely making more sense to me now though. I need to play with compression and eq a bunch more. The compressor plug in is supposed to be pretty good but is pretty complex so it may take a bit. EQ is more baffling to me at the moment. At least how to apply to several tracks to make sure they dont step on each other. I seriously need to commit to recording more stuff just so my hands are on it more often.

 

[Prages]

EQ is more baffling to me at the moment. At least how to apply to several tracks to make sure they dont step on each other. I seriously need to commit to recording more stuff just so my hands are on it more often.

I really don't do a ton of EQing when I'm mixing. I try to dial in a tone that works right off the bat. I will sometimes go in and do some minor EQing like cutting lows on the guitar tracks if they are muddy sounding with the bass guitar track playing. I also usually add some highs on guitar tracks just to give them a little extra sizzle.

I use EQ on drum tracks, but if you're using a drum software you shouldn't really need to.

EQ is another thing that you can read about until you turn blue, but actually spending some time playing with it will probably do you more good than reading about it.

 

[Kerouac]

Easily the best thing I've ever done for my recordings is leave more headroom. If you're recording at the 24-bit rate, there is no reason to record hot... aim for input levels of -18 with peaks about -12. If you're clipping on your master fader, turn down the other tracks, but leave the MF at unity. Proper gain staging makes a HUGE difference in the quality of the final product and having a final mix with lower overall volume and plenty of headroom is a better way to go... you can always apply a mastering plug (or chain together a couple of processors to replicate one) to bring your overall level up after the fact.

 

[Kerouac]

EQ is another thing that you can read about until you turn blue, but actually spending some time playing with it will probably do you more good than reading about it.

+1.

If you really want to experiment with EQ, get a couple of drum loops or guitar loops from somewhere and listen to how the different frequencies affect the sound. Take notes and remember that for correction, subtractive EQ is the best bet whereas for EFFECT additive EQ is better.