The Taylor Swift Factor

Fuck fair. :thu:

I'm more leveraging the idea of her popularity and success and it having nothing to do with the quality of the music. Yes, the folks I mentioned had both, but Chris Thile won't ever touch her in sales and popularity, neither will Ani, Todd Park Mohr, and countless other vastly more talented folks. I'm more interested in the musicians that have something to say. Most of the ones I love really seem to be saying something and doing it interestingly. Taylor Swift is musical McDonalds, and I don't eat that shit. Other can ingest and enjoy that stuff, bu tit's not for me. I think they're missing out on so many better options, but they like the same shit...this doesn't move music (or food :)) forward.

Look, her music isn't going to make the cut on my desert island 120GB iPod Classic.

But within the parameters of contemporary pop music currently on the charts, you could do a hell of a lot worse on any level. We're focusing on her because she's #1, without analyzing #2-50, because we're mostly ignorant about it. Context is everything.
 
Obviously me ( :thu: ), but when you're almost 25 and singing about being upset with a man sounding like a 13 year old girl being mad at her first boyfriend...that's sophomoric. Her lyrics lack poetry and subtlety. To quote Robot Devil:

"Your lyrics lack subtlety! You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!"

It's all about the appeal. Reverse the situation around who your musical demographic would appeal to. Now take the tips that made Taylor successful and apply it to yourself. Now just for a fact, I am not a fan of Taylor but won't judge her music as I don't listen to the pop radio. In fact I don't even listen to classic rock anymore either. I just like to look at her success and see what she has accomplished and learn from it all.

Good comparison's, but it won't get me to respect her artistry, but that's more because the music is shite. The Jackson Five were teens (and younger) singing love songs to teen girls, so the scenario still fits. Michael's lyrics evolved to singing about women and even risque topics (Billy Jean) for the time. But ABC and I Want You Back are just much better tunes written by much better writers.

I never expected you to respect her artistry. It is all about learning what and how others succeed. We all learn by learning from what others have trailblazed, take that information and try to execute it. If we don't, we play to empty rooms and wonder why the venue didn't help us get people or why we can't get another gig.

Playing to your strengths and market is another way to stagnate. Imagine if the Beatles just stuck to love tunes or the Stones just stayed a blues band. They had a market locked, but they pushed their fans...challenged them to take a journey. They had to lose quite a few fans initially, but in the end they created catalogs that are mind blowing. Taylor is likely to remain disproportionately popular for at least another decade, but she's not going to be talked about like Dylan, Lennon/McCartney, or even Neil Diamond for her songcraft.

People play and listen to music for different reasons and I'm not saying anyone else's are more or less important or meaningful. I am saying that regardless of her success, the music she sings is not something I enjoy and not something I'll listen to in any situation where I can control what I get to hear.

Exactly! Not trying to defned Taylor on this one but she has crossed over to the pop market and has left the country market. I love what Brad Paisley said at the last country music awards: "I am glad Taylor is no longer in country!"

As for the Beatles, never really was a fan. Loved a song here and there but they to over saturated the market. To the point that even today, they music lives in a saturated environment - this too applies to the Stones. This is why I now listen to Sinatra and some of the croners besides jazz, country and such. I agree the Taylor's songwriting will not reach the level of Lennon/McCartney and such but she has made a mark in the industry that has turned heads. Only the future generation will be able to define that stance.

How about Mozart or Ellington?

Mozart died poor
Duke don't know much on his history but his music like Amadeus lives on
 
Look, her music isn't going to make the cut on my desert island 120GB iPod Classic.

But within the parameters of contemporary pop music currently on the charts, you could do a hell of a lot worse on any level. We're focusing on her because she's #1, without analyzing #2-50, because we're mostly ignorant about it. Context is everything.

I am with you on that. I don't own anything from her and never will. I just like the fact about how she handles her followers.
 
I just like the fact about how she handles her followers.

To some of my original statements, she isn't handling anything, she's being managed and letting those folks and their marketers promote her. Duke, Mo', John and Macca, and tons of others made it on their talent, talent that evolved and grew. Her talent is marginal, but the propaganda machine around is massive. The line between country and pop has been super thin for at least two decades and the crossover thing has been done by other artists, it's just that few have given over to one genre over the other.

Obviously the Beatles created a similar stir, but in the midst of being the biggest band in the world they stopped touring and they just went crazy in the studio. For the girls/teens that were hung up on everything up to HELP, Rubber Soul started fucking with their ears and kept going on from there...even HELP started straying away from the poppy love songs with Dylan impressions and deeper orchestrations. It's not about liking the Beatles though or placing them on pedestal, they're merely and example of how artists evolve given the opportunity. They could have failed, people could have stopped buying albums and buy the standards of the time they should have. The artist has to be willing to take a chance and not the notion of crossing an imaginary genre boundary.

Anyway, I get what you're saying, but I'm not listening to artists for anything other than their success at grabbing and keeping my musical attention. It would be great if Ian Moore were a household name and putting out the killer music he's been making his entire career, but I can't/don't worry about how rich he'll be when he dies.

As to the popular music angle, I'm still finding plenty of new artists and music to listen to and a certain amount of it is definitely pop, but it's not blockbuster chart topping American Top 40. In reading articles about and interviews with these artists, it's definitely a hope/goal for them to be the next Gaga or Swift, but it's not happening. I only listened to top 40 peripherally through my sister, so it's never been my area of interest EXCEPT for all of the various stuff throughout my life that found it's way there after the fact of my already being a fan. That said, some tunes that I hadn't heard until they were Top 40 hits that I heard via canned music or friends have found their way to my ears and hit those happy spots. I'm always searching and keeping my ears open and buying and listening to what I like, just like everyone else here. Admittedly some of the "new" stuff appeals because it feel like home via its touching on familiar things that I already love. Other stuff, however, grabs me because it's actually musically new and different from things I've heard and that's a big plus. I've also grown out of appreciation of a ton of music. Some stuff is always getting played and other stuff is like a fond remembrance. Hopefully we're all evolving/growing/changing as listeners and players (although the latter hasn't happened for me in WAY too long).

I feel like this a circular discussion, so I'll bow out now. Thanks for conversating, but I can't spend anymore of my time focusing on Ms. Swift.
 
Imagine what that logic says about metal listeners.

Metal lyrics are about teenage women pissed off at their men? Who knew?


I listen to metal for the music, not the lyrics. They could sing about fluffy kittens for all I care, I'll still listen to it :embarrassed:
 
Now question is what defines her lyrics as sophomoric? As artists wanting to continue in their field they need to appeal to their specific demographic - and MWGL is not Swift's demographic.

My short lived on-air personality world made me realize that you need to sell to you market appeal and not to the naysayers. The naysayers will always critique but the bottom line is they don't impact the successful artist.



I dont see it any different than most rap, dance music, death metal or any other clearly defined genre. Country definitely has a more organized formula but its the same thing. If they know their demographic they play the music that will appeal to them. I cant even look at most rap artists with their goofy outfits and their "hard" face. Or think about those scary cookie monster metal guys with the dramatic make up and Halloween type costumes. Is that more legit than a yough girl singing sappy love songs? (The answer is no.)

And you will find that most of us with daughters dont listen to Ms. Swift but appreciate that she is available for our kids to listen to as an alternative to the likes of Miley. If you dont have a daughter, you dont get a say on that one.

And I dont really get the hate. So she is successful. How is that hurting anyone here? Again, I would rather see her having success than some of the other options.
 
To some of my original statements, she isn't handling anything, she's being managed and letting those folks and their marketers promote her. Duke, Mo', John and Macca, and tons of others made it on their talent, talent that evolved and grew. Her talent is marginal, but the propaganda machine around is massive. The line between country and pop has been super thin for at least two decades and the crossover thing has been done by other artists, it's just that few have given over to one genre over the other.




I have a hard time thinking of anyone right now who is at a very high level of success that doesnt fall exactly into this description. Being that successful has far more to do with the product, the marketing and the timing. I know some will say Gaga is talented but whatever. Her success is the same basic forumula as Madonna, Brittany, and Miley. Talent is irrelevent once the machine starts rolling.

I think what Saint is getting at is all of the very successful acts have a very specific and comprehensive process for marketing and that if local bands dont make some sort of effort they cant complain about empty rooms. Social media is free or even really cheap if you use the advertising options so there really is no excuse for not using it to promote any business, including a band. There are definitely techniques worth learning to make it more effective without annoying people but if nothing else get the accounts and put them on a banner at your shows. People do most everything on their phones right now so social media is worth a shot.

I think it is a good topic. How to use social media is a conversation in itself but the idea of having a plan to promote your small business is somethine I havent seen here often.
 
Metal lyrics are about teenage women pissed off at their men? Who knew?


I listen to metal for the music, not the lyrics. They could sing about fluffy kittens for all I care, I'll still listen to it :embarrassed:

Probably one of the reasons why I don't listen to metal anymore. In my younger rebelious days I loved the intensity and the energy. Lyrics...who cares about the lyrics. As my desire to song write became strong I found that lyric writing was equally important as the music so I started listening to the lyrics. What the hell, this stuff is all cheese and crap, who cares about this stuff. So you start to write about mythology and philosophy and find that the same shit you listened to and didn't understand was what you were writing about - fail boat. Who is going to want to buy this crap and let me take a look at the crap I bought - why did I buy it?

First it was oh the guitar player is great or the song is great. After that it is how deep does this shit go, let's change music idioms and see what others are doing. So I jump into 80's New Wave...I like this change. Let me explore this style of music and the it went on and on.

The bottom line is that I wanted to grow as a musician rather than trying to play the Flight of the Bumble Bee at 1000 Beats per minute. Sadly there is no music like that that is marketable. After all, when you are young and hungry and want to make music your life, there really is no such thing as a sell out. It is more a compromise of making a living or traveling in a van working in a 7-11 trying to break out - Just think 'The Story of Anvil'.

I dont see it any different than most rap, dance music, death metal or any other clearly defined genre. Country definitely has a more organized formula but its the same thing. If they know their demographic they play the music that will appeal to them. I cant even look at most rap artists with their goofy outfits and their "hard" face. Or think about those scary cookie monster metal guys with the dramatic make up and Halloween type costumes. Is that more legit than a yough girl singing sappy love songs? (The answer is no.)

And you will find that most of us with daughters dont listen to Ms. Swift but appreciate that she is available for our kids to listen to as an alternative to the likes of Miley. If you dont have a daughter, you dont get a say on that one.

And I dont really get the hate. So she is successful. How is that hurting anyone here? Again, I would rather see her having success than some of the other options.

No there is no difference. When I started the thread because I ran across this article on Swift and it had a lot to say. With brother Powell's thread about band draw...

http://markweinguitarlessons.com/forums/threads/who-is-the-draw-in-your-band.64360/

This thread if users embraced the knowledge would hopefully help to improve their own. While Swift does not sit well with many, she is as a business a great model to follow. I have seen to many threads and articles about the battles between bands and bar owners. Yeah it sucks but complaining about it is not going to change the situation. Learn, develop and do eet! Everyone always asks what happened to that band that achieved success to find that they are still on the circuit but could not make it back to the top. One hit wonders are the best example.

If we start talent comparisons of artists, I don't believe that Yngwie Malmsteen would achieve status like Swift. He has more talent in his little finger than she does. But the masses could give a rats ass about Yngwie as he does not have the appeal that the world wants.

The great Tommy Tedesco said it best: "There is no money above the 5th fret!"

I have a hard time thinking of anyone right now who is at a very high level of success that doesnt fall exactly into this description. Being that successful has far more to do with the product, the marketing and the timing. I know some will say Gaga is talented but whatever. Her success is the same basic forumula as Madonna, Brittany, and Miley. Talent is irrelevent once the machine starts rolling.

I think what Saint is getting at is all of the very successful acts have a very specific and comprehensive process for marketing and that if local bands dont make some sort of effort they cant complain about empty rooms. Social media is free or even really cheap if you use the advertising options so there really is no excuse for not using it to promote any business, including a band. There are definitely techniques worth learning to make it more effective without annoying people but if nothing else get the accounts and put them on a banner at your shows. People do most everything on their phones right now so social media is worth a shot.

I think it is a good topic. How to use social media is a conversation in itself but the idea of having a plan to promote your small business is somethine I havent seen here often.

You hit it on the nose Johnny!
 
Metal lyrics are about teenage women pissed off at their men? Who knew?


I listen to metal for the music, not the lyrics. They could sing about fluffy kittens for all I care, I'll still listen to it :embarrassed:

We all know that you're special. :tongue:
 
Im a huge Taylor Swift fan so heres my take


Taylor Swift is Merle Haggard with tits.

she sings about what her life is really about: boys
not unlike Bon Scott singing about being a rock and roll singer

she is as authentic as hank williams sr, and leadbelly

thats why her songs resonate with her audience. authenticity whether fake or real is what people like.
from billionaire bruce springsteen singing about unemployment to taylor swift giving the finger to music critics
in 'mean'

as johnny cash said to merle haggard,
"You are everything they think I am"

Taylor Swift is the real deal. The fact that the deal is a tween banging every 15 year old
boy in school is irrelevant.
__________________
 
I watched The Voice Last night (pre-recorded) with my 6th grade daughter and my wife. I like reading this stuff about Taylor, and liked her "coaching" on the show a couple weeks ago. But watching her perform made me cringe. Not so much the song but her stage presence just bugged me. I am glad it is available for my daughter though. a lot better than a lot of other stuff out there. She knew all the words to the song and was singing right along, enjoying the heck out of herself. That is ok with me. @Johnny N. hit it right with the daughter thing. I don't have to like it personally, and that's ok.
 
I watched The Voice Last night (pre-recorded) with my 6th grade daughter and my wife. I like reading this stuff about Taylor, and liked her "coaching" on the show a couple weeks ago. But watching her perform made me cringe. Not so much the song but her stage presence just bugged me. I am glad it is available for my daughter though. a lot better than a lot of other stuff out there. She knew all the words to the song and was singing right along, enjoying the heck out of herself. That is ok with me. @Johnny N. hit it right with the daughter thing. I don't have to like it personally, and that's ok.

Agreed and I don't have daughter. Watched the Voice last night as well and had to look at the situation differently since Taylor sings Pop now vs. Country. I would definitely rather see her on the box than Miley, but hey I just enjoyed listening the music, the advice the coaches have to offer, and what one can be learned as a musician.
 
My daughter used to listen to Hannah Montana (Miley) back when she was a Disney child. I am glad she has moved beyond her to Taylor at this point. She was very disappointed that Anita, the reggae singer, did not move on. Anita did not have a good night on that song. The boy band guy that was saved sang much better in that moment. Anita should have stayed true to herself and sang something reggae or reggae styled, rather than try to sing diva notes.
 
I wasn't much into the kids, dug the country guy though as well as the girl that is a fan of Whitney Houston.
I like both of those, Matthew the indy young guy with glasses, and Damien the old school soul singer. I thought Danica, the Whitney lady, outperformed both Pharrell and the other guy (luke) last night when they performed "Wonderful World". The other contestant's timing was really off for me. But my Dad performed that song on sax for years and years with a certain traditional vocal oriented timing, and to hear it done differently always throws me off.
 
I like both of those, Matthew the indy young guy with glasses, and Damien the old school soul singer. I thought Danica, the Whitney lady, outperformed both Pharrell and the other guy last night when they performed "Wonderful World". The other contestant's timing was really off for me. But my Dad performed that song on sax for years and years with a certain traditional vocal oriented timing, and to hear it done differently always throws me off.

Agreed. Now what will be interesting is what the artists makeovers will be in the future. They have exposure by making it this far. It is time for marketing machines to help defined the artists.
 
Agreed. Now what will be interesting is what the artists makeovers will be in the future. They have exposure by making it this far. It is time for marketing machines to help defined the artists.
My least favorite part. That, and declaring a "winner". I always wish they could just be themselves and perform a bunch of music from here on out. But oh well.
 
Shit...My post is way back there.....Now I have to scroll back and read forward...


Fuck,I'm hungry and tired,(and cooking), and really don't give two shits about the topic at hand..........

Fuck it....Log off...............
 
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