Beating a Dead Horse

[JC777]

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum since the days of Harmony Central,
However, this is a little bit different take.
I personally never considered fretboard material as being a driving factor.
What say you?

 

[jrockbridge]

I don’t have the extensive experience of the gentleman in that video. But, my limited experience aligns with his opinions.

The first time I came across this phenomenon, I swapped a Strat neck. I could not believe how much the different neck changed the sound. I did other neck swaps over the years and I agree that different fingerboard woods sound noticeably different from each other.

I have a Parker Nitefly guitar. It’s made of wood except for a non-wood composite fingerboard. I’ve tried multiple pickup swaps but pups never sound the same in that guitar. It’s an alder body. It’s Strat scale length. I believe the neck wood is maple. But, when I swapped pickups from a Strat into the Nitefly, it sounded dramatically different.

I put hand wound BG humbuckers into a cheap Squier HH Strat. They sounded great but the guitar was not particularly well made. By comparison, the Nitefly feels amazing. So, I swapped those same two BG HB’s, and the electronics, from the Squier into the Nitefly. The result was a completely different, uninspired sound.

Years ago, there used to be a guitar store in Castle Rock that carried Parker guitars. I enjoyed the feel of the Nitefly so much that I thought, maybe, I could find a Fly or Nitefly that had a great sound. Instead, I came to the conclusion that, while a composite fingerboard is my favorite feel, it just does not produce a sound that inspires me like a great SSS, SSH or HH Strat.

It’s hard to put the Nitefly sound into words. With any of the pups I’ve swapped into it, the sound is very compressed, flat and boring. I still own the guitar and still enjoy playing it for the feel. Now, I only play it with a mix of piezo and some high output Dimarzios. I think that’s the reason Parker guitars have those piezo pups. Any magnetic pups by themselves in my Nitefly sound uninspiring to me.

 

[PunkKitty]

I'm tired of thinking about it. I just know what I like. And that's all that matters.

 

[JC777]

I don’t have the extensive experience of the gentleman in that video. But, my limited experience aligns with his opinions.

The first time I came across this phenomenon, I swapped a Strat neck. I could not believe how much the different neck changed the sound. I did other neck swaps over the years and I agree that different fingerboard woods sound noticeably different from each other.

I have a Parker Nitefly guitar. It’s made of wood except for a non-wood composite fingerboard. I’ve tried multiple pickup swaps but pups never sound the same in that guitar. It’s an alder body. It’s Strat scale length. I believe the neck wood is maple. But, when I swapped pickups from a Strat into the Nitefly, it sounded dramatically different.

I put hand wound BG humbuckers into a cheap Squier HH Strat. They sounded great but the guitar was not particularly well made. By comparison, the Nitefly feels amazing. So, I swapped those same two BG HB’s, and the electronics, from the Squier into the Nitefly. The result was a completely different, uninspired sound.

Years ago, there used to be a guitar store in Castle Rock that carried Parker guitars. I enjoyed the feel of the Nitefly so much that I thought, maybe, I could find a Fly or Nitefly that had a great sound. Instead, I came to the conclusion that, while a composite fingerboard is my favorite feel, it just does not produce a sound that inspires me like a great SSS, SSH or HH Strat.

It’s hard to put the Nitefly sound into words. With any of the pups I’ve swapped into it, the sound is very compressed, flat and boring. I still own the guitar and still enjoy playing it for the feel. Now, I only play it with a mix of piezo and some high output Dimarzios. I think that’s the reason Parker guitars have those piezo pups. Any magnetic pups by themselves in my Nitefly sound uninspiring to me.

Years ago, if someone had said that 1/4-3/16 of an inch of wood would make a difference in sound, I would have dismissed it. There are so many variables to a neck, kiln time, quartersawn, maple finish, glue, etc.
But what he says about ebony has always been my experience as well.
I know when I was building, I would map out mating necks for aesthetics. Then when I was close to completing the project, some of the necks were swapped. Not because on one was brighter or darker, the argument you hear with maple vs. rosewood debate.
But as a whole it complimented the overall tone of the guitar. I could never say, that was due to the rosewood. Or the finish on that Maple neck is much harder than the unfinished rosewood.
All necks were equal, but some were more equal that others. See what I did there.

 

[jrockbridge]

I’ve tried to come up with an explanation as to why different woods can influence sound in different ways. But, I have no engineering knowledge. I have no high tech skills. So, I’ve come to the conclusion that each piece of wood must have the spirit of a wood elf living within it.

 

[Jbird]

I’ve tried to come up with an explanation as to why different woods can influence sound in different ways. But, I have no engineering knowledge. I have no high tech skills. So, I’ve come to the conclusion that each piece of wood must have the spirit of a wood elf living within it.

A Dryad?

 

[jrockbridge]

A Dryad?

Yes. That’s logical. They must be Greek nymphs.

 

[mongooz]

i have been part of this question on "does wood make a difference".
it certainly does, UNTIL you plug your guitar into a screaming (fill in amp), with tons of O.D./distortion.
then....NO, it does not.

me and the other guitar player(a carpenter) in many bands together actually built a toilet seat guitar with a humbucker and plugged it into a high gain amp, and then plugged a 1957 LP Black Beauty into said amp with same settings. you could not hear a discerinable difference.

 

[baimun]

I've always been a big proponent of tone wood.... but over the past few years, I've been noticing more and more positive and negative changes in tone based on things like nut, and (whether it's an ABR style two piece or a tremolo) the contact patch of the bridge posts and where the string anchors.

The tough part is that Bone vs Plastic vs Graphite nut... Zinc vs Steel vs Brass saddles isn't as easily quantifiable as "brighter" or "snappier" but more in feel or how responsive tonal changes are.

More and more it leads me to some of the points that Paul Reed Smith is constantly bringing up when people think he's being overly OCD. String is vibrating... what is the string anchored on in each end? What is the stiffness and density of the headstock and neck? Is it one continuous piece of wood from headstock to bridge (neck through) or is there a second density of wood bolted glued or bolted between headstock and bridge? I think we can mostly agree regardless of for/against tonewood arguement that the rest of the body sides/wings/slabtop mostly change overall weight/balance moreso than audible differences.

Most of the time it seems that if someone says "XYZ makes no difference" will be using gain and just holding a chord or chugging... when someone DOES hear a difference, they'll be playing cleaner and with more dynamics... because tonewood and the above mentioned details in nut/bridge/neck/hardware seem to affect the transients, bloom, and the feel moreso than the "tone".

But that's pretty on-brand for us guitarists who refer to a pitch-altering vibrola bar as a "tremolo".

 

[mongooz]

I've always been a big proponent of tone wood.... but over the past few years, I've been noticing more and more positive and negative changes in tone based on things like nut, and (whether it's an ABR style two piece or a tremolo) the contact patch of the bridge posts and where the string anchors.

The tough part is that Bone vs Plastic vs Graphite nut... Zinc vs Steel vs Brass saddles isn't as easily quantifiable as "brighter" or "snappier" but more in feel or how responsive tonal changes are.

More and more it leads me to some of the points that Paul Reed Smith is constantly bringing up when people think he's being overly OCD. String is vibrating... what is the string anchored on in each end? What is the stiffness and density of the headstock and neck? Is it one continuous piece of wood from headstock to bridge (neck through) or is there a second density of wood bolted glued or bolted between headstock and bridge? I think we can mostly agree regardless of for/against tonewood arguement that the rest of the body sides/wings/slabtop mostly change overall weight/balance moreso than audible differences.

agreed. the biggest audio differences in "tone wood" is in acoustic instruments. then it makes all the difference in sound.
however, i used to swap strat necks from night to night, just to mess with our bass player. (changing strings was as far as he went on working on instruments. he couldn't wrap his head around swapping necks daily.)

i'd have a rosewood board neck on friday night and a fretted maple neck on saturday night. i did notice that either rosewood was darker sounding or the maple was brighter, whichever, but i was doing this with the same body and pups, so it was definitely because of the wood tone.
(i wasn't using tons of OD, except for solos)

 

[baimun]

agreed. the biggest audio differences in "tone wood" is in acoustic instruments. then it makes all the difference in sound.
however, i used to swap strat necks from night to night, just to mess with our bass player. (changing strings was as far as he went on working on instruments. he couldn't wrap his head around swapping necks daily.)

i'd have a rosewood board neck on friday night and a fretted maple neck on saturday night. i did notice that either rosewood was darker sounding or the maple was brighter, whichever, but i was doing this with the same body and pups, so it was definitely because of the wood tone.
(i wasn't using tons of OD, except for solos)

And I can tell you from the several guitars that I've owned with solid rosewood necks.... I hear a bigger change in the tone shaping and transients than when I would take a neck and hardware and transfer it to a different looking body.

 

[jrockbridge]

In the pro tonewood arguments, most people seem to emphasize the impact of body wood, while ignoring mention of the neck. In my limited experience, the neck wood seems to have a big influence on the sound of a solid body guitar. But, I don't even have a strong opinion on how much body wood influences sound. I don't even know how important using wood in the body of a solid electric guitar is for the overall sound.

I've noticed that chambered bodies, semi-hollow bodies, hollow bodies, etc, all influence the overall sound. But, I would not define any of those as solid body electric guitars. I even think it's important to label a "weight relieved" solid body as such, even though I suspect that some methods probably only impact the overall sound in a small way. But, I don't have enough experience to have an opinion on the impact of weight relief on guitar sound.

I suspect that multiple things impact the sound of a solid electric guitar including the overall design, scale length, materials, bridges, pickups, strings, etc. And, I agree, based on my experience, more gain means you hear less of the impact of all those things from the guitar.

The basic questions I ask myself about any guitar: (1) Do I like the look of the guitar? Must be a YES now. But, looks did not matter much to me in the beginning. (2) Does it weigh less than 9 lbs? If YES, I'll consider it. I don't really care if an 11 lbs guitar will sound better, I learned after weighing my guitars recently that none are over 9 lbs (all are between 7-9 lbs), so 9 lbs has been my subliminal maximum all these years without actually weighing before buying. The big girls got put back on the rack. (3) Do I like the feel of the guitar? Obviously, it must be a YES, but I have multiple neck profiles and scale lengths, so I'm not stuck in a narrow criteria of what FEELS good to me. (4) Do I like the way the guitar sounds? Must be a YES. I used to buy guitars with the idea that I could upgrade the sound with a pup swap. No longer. Some pup swaps worked out. Others did not. (5) Is it within my budget? Must be YES, but it's a different number depending on current circumstances.

If I find a guitar that meets my 5 basic criteria and I discover it's made out of plastic, hemp, or somethings else, I'd still buy it. I'm not some religious, tonewood purist. I just happen to have noticed the impact of different woods on the necks of my guitars.

 

[baimun]

The basic questions I ask myself about any guitar: (1) Do I like the look of the guitar? Must be a YES now. But, looks did not matter much to me in the beginning. (2) Does it weigh less than 9 lbs? If YES, I'll consider it. I don't really care if an 11 lbs guitar will sound better, I learned after weighing my guitars recently that none are over 9 lbs (all are between 7-9 lbs), so 9 lbs has been my subliminal maximum all these years without actually weighing before buying. The big girls got put back on the rack. (3) Do I like the feel of the guitar? Obviously, it must be a YES, but I have multiple neck profiles and scale lengths, so I'm not stuck in a narrow criteria of what FEELS good to me. (4) Do I like the way the guitar sounds? Must be a YES. I used to buy guitars with the idea that I could upgrade the sound with a pup swap. No longer. Some pup swaps worked out. Others did not. (5) Is it within my budget? Must be YES, but it's a different number depending on current circumstances.

Yep Yep Yep. Obviously the look determines what kind of gig I'll play a guitar on (but I've been known to bust out a Charvel Star at an Island Reggae gig) and often times I can wrap my hand around a neck and know immediately if a guitar is a "Nope... not a chance"... like when it has a razor thin neck or weighs 11 pounds.

People talk about how a guitar makes you "feel" when you play it.... and I can tell you that any guitar that makes me "feel" ten years older at the end of a gig because of how it hangs on my shoulder is a deal breaker for me.

 

[Lerxst]

I didn't watch the video but IMO it all goes back to something that I saw Bill Lawrence discuss in the past. While he was talking specifically about pickups, the concept is so much more broad; the tone of an electric guitar is the sum of the parts...guitar, electronics all they way through the full signal chain. As guitarists we love to obsess over individual parts in that equation but often forget how it all comes together in context.

 

[DinoMikeSr]

This makes sense to me because it’s what I have thought for years.

 

[Monson]

This makes sense to me because it’s what I have thought for years.

Yeah, but using science to win an argument is cheating.

 

[jrockbridge]

This makes sense to me because it’s what I have thought for years.

That’s a cool slide guitar he made out of two big wooden, garage workbenches. But, how does one haul that to a gig?

 

[smurfco]

beating off a dead horse? weirdos

 

[jrockbridge]

Yeah, but using science to win an argument is cheating.

I’m a fan of this guys videos for entertainment. But, I’m not sure what this video definitively proved.

If the idea was to show that a cheap guitar with cheap wood and certain parts upgrades can sound very close to an expensive guitar in a YT video, ok. I can believe it because I’ve upgraded a few cheapies with quality pickups, electronics, even tuners and bridges. But, does a cheap guitar actually feel and play like a more expensive guitar? I doubt the cheap guitar in that video felt and played like the more expensive one but there’s no way for me to know. I do own a few cheapies I like that do play fairly well.

Near the end of the video, Thera is a comparison between the guitar tuned to an open chord vs his workbench slide guitar tuned to the same chord. Maybe, they sound close through speakers but I was listening through headphones and they sounded different to me. I thought the workbench slide sounded fine but what does that prove?

If the point is that a guitar neck and body are not critical for slide guitar, ok, I’ll go along with that point. I’ve converted a few guitars with lousy necks to slide guitars. One is a 1965 Sears Silvertone (Danelectro) with a Masonite body.

Maybe, the point of the workbench slide guitar was to prove that the neck and body wood contribute nothing to the sound. Perhaps, there is something to that point when considering open string notes. Personally, I fret chords and notes on my guitars most of the time. Also, those workbenches seem to be made of a lot of wood. But, I’m sure the wood is cheap lumber, not carefully dried and selected tonewood. If the point was to show that you can make a decent sounding slide out of workbenches in the garage, ok. It worked ok in that YT video.

I recall watching a YT video comparison between an Ibanez Tube Screamer vs a Klon Centaur. The video made them sound nearly identical. I don’t own a Centaur but I do have a Klon KTR and I used to own an Analogman Brown Mod Maxon OD9 which is a classic 808 circuit. Those two pedals emphasize different frequencies. They clip different. They even feel different, at least in person.

I think that video raises as many questions as it attempts to answer. Again, I do get a kick out of his videos.

I laughed pretty hard watching his video where he made a bunch of stomp boxes sound like an amp. Don’t try this at home folks! I’m pretty sure my ToneX One pedal by itself does a better job.

She blinded me with science….

 

[Honkridge]

I'm gonna go check with The Gear Page. That should settle it