A question about varying time signatures

David_

Facepalmist
Watching the Rush documentary, Beyond the Lighted Stage, a few years ago, they showed some music reviews that were critical of Rush's music. One of the reasons, was that they change time signatures during a song.

Today, I was looking up the history of Pink Floyd's Mother, and Wikipedia had this to say:

Mother is 5:32 in length. The majority of the song is in G Major, though the chorus is predominantly a plagal cadence in C Major. The song is notable for its varied use of time signatures, such as 5/8 and 9/8.[4] Pink Floyd drummer Nick Mason found these time-signature changes difficult to learn, and, with the band recording on a very tight schedule, ceded the drumming duties to session drummer Jeff Porcaro.[5]

The song begins quietly with solo voice and a single acoustic guitar, and gradually expands its instrumentation to include, by the song's end, reed organ, piano, drums, electric bass, and electric guitar. The song has a minimal introduction, consisting only of a sharp inhalation and rapid exhalation before the first verses are sung by Roger Waters. The verse starts with one measure of 5/8, while most of it 4/4, or "common time".[citation needed] It also features one measure of 6/8.

The chorus, sung by David Gilmour starts out on two measures of 4/4 before going into 6/8 (or "compound duple meter") for most of the chorus, in a narrative response to the first set of lyrics. There is also one measure of 9/8. Then a guitar solo follows over a chord progression in 4/4 time. Waters sings another verse, which is once more followed by Gilmour's chorus (with different lyrics). Finally, the song concludes with an arrangement stripped back down to one acoustic guitar and Waters's voice, and a ritardando in which Waters sings, "Mother did it need to be so high?", a reference to the metaphorical wall constructed by the character Pink. The song ends on the subdominant, C Major, which may create an "unfinished" or "dissatisfying" feeling

Do you think the time signature changes during a song, are by design, for most rock bands? Did Roger Waters sit down and think he wanted 5/8 here, and then 9/8 here? Or do you think he wrote music that sounded good to him, and not think about the time signatures.
 
I have no idea, but I would guess that he had the idea/lyrics for the song with the Question-lines for verses, and it just happened to be the 5/8 measure when clapped out.

"Mother should I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah"
 
In a band like Rush or Pink Floyd I’m willing to bet it was by design.

And any reviewer that writes something as stupid as “Meter changes are bad for music” is a fucking moron. Bad music is bad for music. Specific elements are just there to be used by the artist, for better or worse.
 
Not sure about Mother, but I am certain that Jethro Tull-Thick as a Brick has designed in odd time signatures. Lots of them.
 
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as to the OP title, i would agree with @Mark Wein , those bands were likely by design which is also probably true for a lot of prog rock bands.
it was certainly true with Zappa.
 
Here Comes the Sun has a time signature shift every time that guitar part comes in. I believe it was intuitive on Harrison's part. You don't need to know theory in order to write songs with shifting time signatures.


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With Rush and Zappa I would agree that it was by design.

With "Mother", though, I don't think Waters was consciously aware of what those time signatures were, and where the changes were. They probably just "sounded right" to him. I could be wrong but he, like John Lennon, never really struck me as a super intentionally structured songwriter, if that makes sense. John Lennon's song "Remember" has strange time signature changes in it too, and I think it's the same case there, it just sounded right but I bet John wouldn't be able to be like "it goes into 7/5 here for a measure and then back to 9/4". In fact you can hear the bassist getting tripped up all over Remember on the studio album.

While not on the level of a Floyd or Lennon tune of course, I have a couple songs I've written that will have an odd beat here or there that just feels right to me, but if you asked me what the time signature was I wouldn't have much of a clue.
 
I agree with most of the above. However, I don't see Floyd so much being a "math rock" band. The strongest evidence against that notion is in the article itself. If the drummer couldn't grasp it, and a whole band comprised of talented multi-instrumentalists couldn't find anyone among them to sub the drum part, and had to go get a dude like Porcaro to pull it off... it wasn't a conscious construct.

I'm more inclined to believe the sentiment that Waters created a melody in his head without any thought about the time signature/s and then got a rude awakening when trying to put it to tape. Beyond Mother, and Money, there aren't a whole lot of Gilmour era Floyd tunes with odd time signatures.

If it were Rush, Tull, or even TOOL... I'd say it was a deliberate scheme concocted by an evil genius.

I just find it exceptionally rare that a highly skilled band would purposely write something beyond their own ability to even perform the recorded main tracks. This ain't Milli Vanilli we're talking about.

Danny Carrey, Neil Pert, Terry Bozzio, Doane Perry etc could have played that in their sleep.
 
Sometimes the varying time signatures comes when the writer takes pieces from partial songs that they like (but are not complete) and mashes it together with some other song fragment. I'm pretty sure Waters knew what he was doing when he switched up the time sig inside the song - it just fitted what he wanted, and ultimately made it a better song. And I agree that it is unlikely that he planned on doing that ahead of time....it just happened.

I personally like it when bands mess around in different signatures. Switchfoot did a dance tune on their last release in 7/8 time - and it worked.
 
I doubt that very few decent songwriters would ever think “y’know, this song could really use a 7/4 chorus...” — more often than not, they’re either building a song (or section) around a melody or a riff, so the time signature would typically be a given, unless they’re using polyrhythms or something.

Probably also true for most ‘classical’ composers until Schoenberg showed up.

West African or Indian classical are different beasts.
 
Do you think the time signature changes during a song, are by design, for most rock bands? Did Roger Waters sit down and think he wanted 5/8 here, and then 9/8 here? Or do you think he wrote music that sounded good to him, and not think about the time signatures.

"Money" is in 7/4 for much of the song, but shifts to 4/4 for the guitar solo. Gilmour says this was done because it was much easier to do the solo in 4/4 than coming up with something that worked in 7/4. He was still pretty young back then and that probably wouldn't have been as much of a challenge for him in later Floyd.




Jump to the 30 minute mark for where the discussion of Money starts. Both Gilmour and Wright talk about the timing change.
 
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Let's not forget 3/4 and the waltz are odd meters. Much neglected time signature in rock and popular music.


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Yes, they are "by design," because once you've fiddled with a tune enough to start building it out, you either recognize and incorporate the non-standard time signatures or you drop them. Otherwise it's a mess that never comes together.

The genesis of a composition may start as a lucky accident, a cool riff with an odd beat, but the structural development is intentional.
 
Even in a lot of prog stuff I'd say most of the time they weren't trying to "cram" in odd time signatures just for the sake of it. More often than not it was probably the result of a certain riff or melodic phrase. The newer math/prog stuff is of course a whole other thing though, a lot of those guys are a bit too clever for their own good.

Early Floyd with Syd is an interesting one btw. More LSD than intention though.
 
I don't know enough about the other bands to comment but with Mother, to me (get it?) is that it just sounded and worked right rather than any conscious decision to get weird.

If you think about it, every single part if that top line melody is a riff or hook

Mother dadadadadadada

Ooh baby, ooh baby

Will we just build a wall


The timings kind of comes around as a construct of the lyrics imo, not that other way round.
 
Yes, they are "by design," because once you've fiddled with a tune enough to start building it out, you either recognize and incorporate the non-standard time signatures or you drop them. Otherwise it's a mess that never comes together.

The genesis of a composition may start as a lucky accident, a cool riff with an odd beat, but the structural development is intentional.

and thus it is so as you spaketh.


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No clue about other writers, but I have seen people do both purposefully. Bored artist saying "let's just put it on 9/8 and see what the fuck," and another person get a sad look when he realized the chorus was in 5/4 and he had a very rudimentary drummer in the band.

I've done both, but it always seems to get weirdest when you just 'hear' a long-ish melody. I had a great riff that I couldn't fucking synch, and finally I realized "it's in 13/12," which, when you think about it, is so utterly fucking stupid as to make me put down the guitar and make myself leave the house when I finally figured it out. Never went back to it.
 
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