Want to get progressively angrier as you read a thread?

I think it's a great song, the Gloria Jones version, Soft Cell's, and Imelda's are all quite enjoyable. As to the discussion I got about half way through the first page and lost interest.

It seems to me that too many people get caught up in the "rules" of music and others in trying understand artist choices. One of my favorite about arts is the fact that you don't have to be trained to make something good. That said, knowing about different styles and the history of a given area or topic will only help you grow as you further pursue said area or topic. But it has been and remains a point of conflict with some "legit" or classically trained musicians and those that are strictly guided by their ears. Oddly, the many (if not most) of the big changes in the world of classical music (realizing that's a huge swath) were the result of a composer breaking the rules. A lot of jazz theory dives deeper into the idea of there always being any option or way to do things, but even within that genre there are sticklers for the rules.

I'll stop, because I'm getting as annoying as some of the posts in the thread that I couldn't deal with. It's really about what sounds good to the artists and most of them hope other people like it.
 
When I left Loki the Grump, I was replaced by a string of guitarists who said things like "you can't do that, it doesn't conform to theory". They also didn't understand how to play a c shaped barre chord, and nothing sounded the same until we had a reunion. Morons.

Wow. Playing in this acoustic/electric trio for the past couple years has been very eye opening for me. Many things that used to get covered up by distorted guitar or by multiple guitars are left hanging out raw in the wind. I'm constantly trying out different versions of the same chord, played on different strings, or with an open droning string, just to get different layers and textures. It's been a fun challenge rearranging all of these songs and incorporating so many different rhythm and harmony voices with just 6 strings and 10 fingers.
 
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story checks out.

:(
 
Music theory doesn't decide what is right or wrong. It explains why things sound the way they do.

But some of those that have indoctrinated themselves to the idea that theory is the rule have a hard time deviation. They can't rest with something just sounding good, it has to be "right".

Poor myopic bastards. :(
 
Music theory doesn't decide what is right or wrong. It explains why things sound the way they do.

The way I understand it, many of the original classical composers weren't immersed in theory, but instead the music theory came about to explain why what they played worked to the ear.
 
Music theory doesn't decide what is right or wrong. It explains why things sound the way they do.

Exactly. It comes down to a sort of chicken/egg scenario. People were making music before there was music theory. Obviously all of that music couldn't have been "wrong" because the composers didn't use theory to create the pieces.

It happened that over years people developed certain rythms, patters, progressions, voicings, etc. that sounded good. (sometime outside influences, like the Church, had a "helping" hand). At some point, people developed a way of writing the music down in notation. Then these patterns could be studied in more detail. And Music Theory was born. It was born (like any other theory) out of preexisting, real-world, experience.

So, in a way, anybody who claims to not know music theory, and just plays what "sounds good" actually does know music theory. It's only on a subconscious level. They've learned what sounds good from listening to other music, which follows the same constructs. Then they create something that sounds good within those same constructs, just not knowing what those are exactly.

Same as if someone were to watch a pitcher thrown a curve ball over and over, practiced over and over, and learned to throw a curve ball, all without knowing a lick of physics, the theory of gravity, motion of objects, inertia, air resistance and other forces. That ball is still operating under the same conditions as one thrown by a physicist. It's just that the pitcher learned how to operate within these given boundaries by a different approach, using a different language to describe what he saw happening.

People mad music that sounded "good", then they made music theory to describe why that sounded "good". You can then use that music theory to help you make more music that will most likely sound "good". But that doesn't mean you can't do it the old fashioned way and just fiddle around until you find something that sounds "good". It just might take you longer, and you will have a harder time explaining to other people what you're doing and why, because you won't have the lexicon provided by the theory to explain it.

And music theory doesn't preclude you from "breaking the rules". It just means that when you do, you know you're doing it, and are even able to describe that to other musicians who "speak the language".

Science is full of people who were too hung up on the existing theories of their time to realize when those theories didn't work anymore and needed to be modified. Look at the story of quantum mechanics. Is light a wave? Is it a particle? Is it both? Progress was stunned by people's adherence to the theory of the day. Similarly, there are people who are too hung up on existing theories of music. Nothing to be surprised about. People love dogma. They always have. It let's them feel like they are right, and gives them the chance to tell others when they are wrong. People suck.
 
I read the whole thread waiting to find the part that would make me angry. It never really came. Actually, I found a lot of it interesting.

I was inspired to read the whole thing due in large part to the fact that mrbell is the bass player I play with and I'm one of the guitarists he mentions. Turns out it's a small world (wide web).

I think everyone learns music differently. Some are lucky to have a good ear and innate ability. Others, like myself and mrbell, find it helpful to know a little theory. Not because it tells us what is right or wrong, but because it tells us what is likely to work and why.

For a completely different take on the song, here's the gypsy jazz version. There are some interesting chord substitutions:


 
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