So school me on LP's

[GomezAddams]

While interesting, this thread has started to meander a bit. I'll try to give a concise, but general rundown.

First, I'll start with what I call real Les Pauls - essentially, ones with neck binding. These are what most people would think of when you say "Les Paul". These guitars have an arched top, binding on the fingerboard and at least the top of the body. These are generalized into three tiers: Standard, Deluxe, and Custom. Standards are typically bursts and have binding only on the fingerboard and top of the body. Deluxes are like standards, except they have mini humbuckers. Deluxes are often goldtops. Custom adds gold hardware, binding to the back of the body and headstock, fancy headstock inlays, and block fingerboard inserts. Back when ebony was available, customs almost always had ebony fingerboards. Customs were often black, in which case they had solid mahogany bodies instead of the normal maple top on mahogany. Customs also sometimes came with 3 pickups.

Re-issues (R8, R9, R0), traditionals, VOS, etc are modern takes on older versions of the above mentioned versions.

Next level down is the Les Pauls with carved tops, but without binding. These are the Studios, Faded, BFG, etc. There are a LOT of variations in this group.

Next down is the non-carved top versions: Specials, TV, Juniors, etc. These were intended to be starter guitars. Some had two pickups, some had one.

Next down is the Epiphone versions. There are all sorts of versions of Epiphone Les Pauls. In general, there are the higher quality set neck versions, and lower quality bolt-on neck versions (these used to be marketed under the "Baldwin" brand).

Notes:
I *think* anything marketed under the "Gibson" brand is made in the US, and has a nitrocellulose lacquer finish. Epiphones are imported and have polyurethane finish.
In 1961, Gibson Les Pauls were what we'd now call the SG body style.

 

[Brian Krashpad]

First, I'll start with what I call real Les Pauls - essentially, ones with neck binding. .

Everyone's entitled to their opinion

These are what most people would think of when you say "Les Paul"..

Um, no.

Whether your intended reference to "most people" is meant to mean the general population, or more specifically the general population of guitarists, I'd bet you a tenner you are wrong wrong wrong about this statement.

The general population may not even be able to discern a guitar from a bass. No way no how would "most people" consider the defining feature of a "real" Les Paul to be binding. That's just silly. When a non-musician thinks of the defining elements of a particular electric guitar, s/he will think, well, it has 6 strings, you plug it into an amp, it has a couple pickup things under the strings, and if is a LesPaul, it has that iconic singlecut LP shape, 4 controls on the lower part, and a switch thingy on the upper bout. The general population wouldn't even notice binding, any more than they would notice whether the inlays were dots, trapezoids, or blocks.

If "most people" are guitarists, you're still wrong. Musicians know that binding is purely ornamental, and thus has no effect on what the guitar actually does or sounds like, and from a visual standpoint, is not a major design point like the singlecut body shape, the position of the controls and pickups, and the 3-a-side tuners on the headstock.

These guitars have an arched top, binding on the fingerboard and at least the top of the body. These are generalized into three tiers: Standard, Deluxe, and Custom.

And, if you want to include the last 20 years also, Classics and Traditionals.

Next level down is the Les Pauls with carved tops, but without binding. These are the Studios, Faded, BFG, etc. There are a LOT of variations in this group.

I'd bet you'd find that this is the dividing line "most people" would choose for "real" Les Pauls, with the added requirement of excluding doublecuts (whether with binding or without), which is a major design factor (as opposed to a minor design element like binding or inlays) which sets a DC guitar apart from other Les Pauls.

There is a major split between those who consider singlecut Studios and up "real" Les Pauls only if they are Gibsons, or whether setneck Epiphones also qualify. Having played both, there is in my opinion no good reason to exclude setneck Epi's, which had Les Paul's blessing sfaik, as they share all the major design elements of their more expensive Gibson counterparts, both in form and function. The fact that Epi's have poly rather than nitro finishes, or lesser tuners or potentiometers, is more a question of degree than of substance.

I won't go so far as to say that everyone who holds a higher standard for "real" Les Pauls is merely guilty of snorkledickery, but I do know that in many cases that is exactly what's going on.

Next down is the non-carved top versions: Specials, TV, Juniors, etc. These were intended to be starter guitars. Some had two pickups, some had one.

Even though these are some of my favorite Les Pauls, I would agree that the majority of people consider Juniors and Specials to be their own animal, separate from "real" archtop LPs. The archtop is a major design element, and due to the screwed-on pickguards (on most models) of Juniors and Specials, the flat-tops immediately look markedly "different" than "real" Pauls. All the moreso when they appear as doublecuts, which are much more common in the Junior/Special family than is true of the archtops, where doublecuts are much more rare.

Also, I'd add the word "originally" before "intended" in your penultimate sentence above. The idea that Juniors or Specials are "beginner" guitars went out the window with Leslie West, and was certified DOA once a slew of punk rockers (Johnny Thunders, Steve Diggle and Pete Shelley of Buzzcocks, Mick Jones of the Clash, etc.) took them up in the early-t0-mid '70's.

Next down is the Epiphone versions. There are all sorts of versions of Epiphone Les Pauls. In general, there are the higher quality set neck versions, and lower quality bolt-on neck versions (these used to be marketed under the "Baldwin" brand).

The super cheapie below-Epi bolt-neck level still exists, it's called "Maestro" now. These are the Gibson product you can find in WalMart or what have you.

Notes:
I *think* anything marketed under the "Gibson" brand is made in the US, and has a nitrocellulose lacquer finish.

Yes as to USA. There is one relatively rare exception to the nitro rule, there were one or two shortlived cheaper models with the designation "SL" in their names, which were poly. "SL" reportedly standing for "Sans Lacquer."

 

[bsman]

Here is the only Les Paul I've ever actually owned. It fits in no convenient group, because it's called a "Junior Special", has a flat top, but sports a bound fingerboard. Yet another misstep by the Gibson company that worked for me (IIRC, I got it NIB for $500). Before I got this, I went through a variety of (mostly Godin) P90 guitars, but never found "the one". I think this is "the one":

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Nice write ups! I would like one one day. If I was getting one I think I would want one with a carved top and set neck, and single cut. Guessing I would go humbuckers. Beyond that, it would depend on what one I found that I liked. Would not rule out an Epi if it was nice. But I might also consider a well done knock off made by Ibanez, Samick, or etc.

I do really enjoy that control set up. I enjoy it on my Hagstrom Viking quite a lot. My Hagstrom is for my purposes close enough that I don't feel compelled to get a LP. Though if money was not better spent elsewhere, it would be fun to get one one day.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

I've never had one, and don't really get the differences between Studio, Standard, Custom....

@335clone , I appreciate the effort, but you are sporting a Seattle Thunderbirds avatar http://www.seattlethunderbirds.com/ , not Seahawks. I suppose that is good enough, and the Seattle T-birds rarely get press so no harm.

 

[335clone]

@335clone , I appreciate the effort, but you are sporting a Seattle Thunderbirds avatar http://www.seattlethunderbirds.com/ , not Seahawks. I suppose that is good enough, and the Seattle T-birds rarely get press so no harm.

LOL. I just grabbed one that seemed inoffensive.

I'll put something better up tonight. But it won't be THIS one... cop0

 

[sunvalleylaw]

LOL. I just grabbed one that seemed inoffensive.

I'll put something better up tonight. But it won't be THIS one...View attachment 24474 cop0

Good! I like stuff that is about the Seahawks organically, not being anti SF or trolling SF.

 

[335clone]

Nice write ups! I would like one one day. If I was getting one I think I would want one with a carved top and set neck, and single cut. Guessing I would go humbuckers. Beyond that, it would depend on what one I found that I liked. Would not rule out an Epi if it was nice. But I might also consider a well done knock off made by Ibanez, Samick, or etc.

I do really enjoy that control set up. I enjoy it on my Hagstrom Viking quite a lot. My Hagstrom is for my purposes close enough that I don't feel compelled to get a LP. Though if money was not better spent elsewhere, it would be fun to get one one day.

I'm kind of in the same boat, as my 335(c) does a decent imitation. I have always wanted a goldtop LP but never actually needed one. I have looked at a few used Edwards on Reverb in the $400 range, and everything I have read makes me think they are better than Epi's by a fair margin.

 

[GomezAddams]

I didn't mean any offense - I did say "what I call real Les Pauls" - it just a distinction I make. I was originally going say "classic" or "traditional" but since Gibson has used those terms for specific things, I was afraid that would muddy the waters.

I guess what most people consider a Les Paul might vary, but I think most guitarists, or even non players who know what a Les Paul is, when asked to picture a Les Paul in their mind, would picture a Standard or a Custom.

I consider Traditionals and Classics as variations on the good old Standard, Deluxe, and Custom. They aren't really separate animals.

My intention on the non carved top versions was indeed that they were originally intended as beginner guitars.

 

[Brian Krashpad]

I didn't mean any offense - I did say "what I call real Les Pauls" - it just a distinction I make. I was originally going say "classic" or "traditional" but since Gibson has used those terms for specific things, I was afraid that would muddy the waters.

I guess what most people consider a Les Paul might vary, but I think most guitarists, or even non players who know what a Les Paul is, when asked to picture a Les Paul in their mind, would picture a Standard or a Custom.

I consider Traditionals and Classics as variations on the good old Standard, Deluxe, and Custom. They aren't really separate animals.

My intention on the non carved top versions was indeed that they were originally intended as beginner guitars.

None taken. For me, a Les Paul is a single cut with an arched top, setneck, 2 or 3 pickups, 4 pots, pup switch on upper bout, and 3-a-side headstock that says Gibson or Epiphone. Never in a million years would binding, or whether the headstock logo is inlaid versus decal, even enter my head as a consideration as being a necessary or essential design element of what makes a Les Paul.

If I see some idealized LP it has those elements, but not binding. Like Traditionals and Classics, I don't see Studios as a separate animal.

Weird.

It's not you, it's me.

 

[smorgdonkey]

Never in a million years would binding, or whether the headstock logo is inlaid versus decal, even enter my head as a consideration as being a necessary or essential design element of what makes a Les Paul.

It's not you, it's me.

...and me.