Marchionne wants Fiat/Chrysler and GM to merge?

OGG said:
FIAT is the worlds largest car maker. Not GM, not Toyota. ..
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VW was announced as the worlds largest automaker in units sold for 2015, last month, taking the title away from Toyota. They were also #1 in terms of revenue for 2014. What metric are you using for FCA?
 
OGG said:
Misinformation is a bitch.

Yes, Chrysler has been turning out consistent turds for several straight decades. Their overall improvement since the FIAT involvement has been nothing short of amazing. Are there still problems to sort out? Absolutely.

FIAT took a bad hit to their reputation in the 70s and 80s for a variety of reasons. Some of which were legit, most of which were beyond their control due to the then socialist government interference.

The cars that made it to the US in those years suffered badly from rust issues caused by cheap and improperly treated steel. There were also some electrical gremlins that in all honesty, while real, were nothing like the electrical gremlins that affected virtually all European cars of the era. Chief among the list of top offenders was the British Leyland group that oversaw Triumph, MG and Jaguar... all of which had nightmarish reliability issues and two of those brands not only pulled out of the US, but went away completely from the world market. The MG name once again adorns new automobiles, and the Triumph name once again adorns new motorcycles, but they are just names and share no lineage with their namesakes.

If you're old enough, you would remember a time when American roads were packed with FIATs, Alfa Romeos, Lancias, Renaults, Peugots, MGs, Triumphs, Jensen/Austin Healys, etc.

They all suffered the same woes and the same fate.

FIAT is the worlds largest car maker. Not GM, not Toyota. ..

They not only survived that abysmal period many decades ago, but turned their fortunes around in a staggering success story.

Don't forget, Ferrari would have been gone decades ago if not for FIAT. Arguably, the best cars to emerge from Maranello, did so under the control and leadership of FIAT. Even though they are in the process of taking Ferrari public, they will still be the main driving force behind the Prancing Horse, and the F1 cars will still proudly display the FIAT logo.

In Europe and abroad, FIAT does not have the negative connotations associated with it that it does here. Nick Mason recently called the FIAT 500 the greatest car in history. .. let that sink in a little.

Also remember that at the time 'Fix It Again Tony" was a popular phrase, Americans as a whole considered ANY foreign car to be unworthy. I remember those days well, when Billy Joe Jim Bob and his beer guzzling buddies would talk endless shit about a Honda or Toyota while proudly standing by there atrocious abominations like a late 80s Corvette that barely produced 150 BHP to the crank, and got 8 miles to a gallon of gas.

Meanwhile, Datsun would sell you a 280Z that put 168 ponies to the rear wheels, get 30 MPG, and still be driveable after 5 years for several thousand dollars less.

Fact is, during the 70s and 80s, the only cars that weren't raging pieces of shit, were Japanese.
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While I never liked Chryslers I was always looking at FIAT's when I was younger. Aside from the sedans, that is. I loved the Spyder. I was also a fan of any bitchin looking euro car, especially ones that looked racy like the R5.

I do remember the euro cars that were over here in the 70's and 80's and the problems they had with them, but every FIAT I knew of (by the time I was in high school they were dirt cheap and a lot of my friends had them because that was all they could afford) was a piece of crap. Even the Spyders.

So, yeah, I am biased because I remember them from that time, but do not get me wrong: The 'Mur'can! cars from that time were also rolling piles of steaming dog shit; underpowered and the designs were something to barf over.

That is why my first car was a 1978 Honda Civic Wagon and my second car was a Ford Festiva (made in Korea). I could not afford an American-made car (purchase) nor cold I afford to keep it on the road (gas, reliability). Yet...

In that time Chrysler and FIAT stood out above the rest as the steamiest piles to be had.
 
No way that deal gets done. No way. He can want in one hand and shit in the other and see which fills up first.

Personally, I think it would be the best thing to happen to GM in my lifetime, but I can't see the powers that be allowing a deal with that magnitude with an overseas entity.

As for consumer satisfaction ratings... meaningless and wholly unreliable for the myriad reasons I've covered previously I'm great detail.

People who buy new Hondas will always give glowing reviews regardless of how many times they have to take the car back to the dealer to fix stupid shit, because they bought into the marketing bullshit and can't be objective.

Same goes for virtually all of the top tier brands. But, spend 20 years in the business and you'll see which cars actually do and do not live up to their reputation.

My FIAT just turned 8,000 miles. So far, the car itself has been amazing. The only issues I've had were the dealer created problem with the unwanted aftermarket alarm, and gas filler tube that I broke off by being an idiot. Although my dealer of purchase sucks balls, the dealer that fixed their fuck up is amazing.

It goes in Tuesday morning for its 2nd completely free synthetic oil change, and a warranty replacement of the filler tube at no charge despite being entirely my fault. That makes me pretty fucking satisfied. :)
 
I get ya', OGG. Buyer's remorse is a rare thing among new car owners. Some have to justify why their choice is better than cheaper nameplate, and therefore in their minds, lesser cars available. The ACSI list looks like a general barometer to me, not anything that actually defines a manufacturer. I know several Mercedes owners who spent too much time at the dealer for repairs. Most have replaced them with something from Japan.

One thing I've learned about auto manufacturers is that their quality certainly changes over the years, and that models within a manufacturer vary wildly when it comes to quality and longevity.

Oh, I've owned just one Honda car and it will be the last. :wink:
 
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OGG said:
No way that deal gets done. No way. He can want in one hand and shit in the other and see which fills up first.

Personally, I think it would be the best thing to happen to GM in my lifetime, but I can't see the powers that be allowing a deal with that magnitude with an overseas entity.

As for consumer satisfaction ratings... meaningless and wholly unreliable for the myriad reasons I've covered previously I'm great detail.

People who buy new Hondas will always give glowing reviews regardless of how many times they have to take the car back to the dealer to fix stupid shit, because they bought into the marketing bullshit and can't be objective.

Same goes for virtually all of the top tier brands. But, spend 20 years in the business and you'll see which cars actually do and do not live up to their reputation.

My FIAT just turned 8,000 miles. So far, the car itself has been amazing. The only issues I've had were the dealer created problem with the unwanted aftermarket alarm, and gas filler tube that I broke off by being an idiot. Although my dealer of purchase sucks balls, the dealer that fixed their fuck up is amazing.

It goes in Tuesday morning for its 2nd completely free synthetic oil change, and a warranty replacement of the filler tube at no charge despite being entirely my fault. That makes me pretty fucking satisfied. :)
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I won't argue with you on this one. My '06 Civic blew an engine before 90K miles. I kept up on the maintenance, checked the oil and changed it regularily, etc...100 miles from home and I hear a tapping. I pull of and wait a few minutes, pop the hood and check the oil. Oil is ok but the tapping....Wait a few more minutes, and check the car out, top to bottom, to see if there is a leak somewhere that is "burning" off before it drips to the ground.

No blue smoke, no smoke at all. Second check of oil level shows it is fine. I take it to the nearest Honda dealer in Victorville and they take a look at it. Service gal comes out and asked when I last changed the oil.

Shit, gonna go that way.

"Two months ago..."

"Record of oil change?"

"Nope, did it myself..."

"Receipt for oil?"

"Nope, bought with about 400 dollars of groceries and other stuff at a Wal-Mart."

"No oil in the car..."

"You are full of shit, show me..."

I walk into the service bay and the mech shows me a can with about five ounces of oil in it.

"You too, are full of shit. The oil was full when I brought it in...Leave my car alone after you button it up."

I heard, later that day, to take it to Honda Cars of Corona. I call and teh service manager tells me that my model of car has been having trouble with cracked blocks in the "High Heat" states of Texas, Arizona and California. They had a "safety advisory" or something like that but no public campaign to do the fix. He tells me to get the car from the VV dealer, with out telling them what I was doing, and bring it to him. He would change the engine, gratis.

I do, he does. Great guy.

Wife's '09 Accord: Bad rear brakes, shot after 12K. Service dude tells me it is normal. I ask him if he thinks I am as stupid as the thinks I look. I then ask him if he can find someone who actually knows about cars.

He apologizes for his stupidity and tells me that they are experiencing problems with the rear brakes and there is a "Safety Advisory" about them but no recall. Lawsuit and all.

I tell him to fix the brakes. They do but refuse to pay for it because of the lawsuit. We get re-imbursed a few months later.

Paint on my '06 Civic: Clear coat peeling after only about 9 months. Honda tells me that it is because I work in the high desert (Apple Valley) and live in the Temecula area. I tell him he is full of shit and leave.

In 2013 I get a recall for the paint. By that time my car looks terrible. When I show it to the paint rep she says it is the worst she has ever seen. They finally repaint it. The clearcoat has made it past 9 months, hopefully it lasts a few years.

Honda a quality is a oxymoron.

Just sayin'
 
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2112 said:
I won't argue with you on this one. My '06 Civic blew an engine before 90K miles. I kept up on the maintenance, checked the oil and changed it regularily, etc...100 miles from home and I hear a tapping. I pull of and wait a few minutes, pop the hood and check the oil. Oil is ok but the tapping....Wait a few more minutes, and check the car out, top to bottom, to see if there is a leak somewhere that is "burning" off before it drips to the ground.

No blue smoke, no smoke at all. Second check of oil level shows it is fine. I take it to the nearest Honda dealer in Victorville and they take a look at it. Service gal comes out and asked when I last changed the oil.

Shit, gonna go that way.

"Two months ago..."

"Record of oil change?"

"Nope, did it myself..."

"Receipt for oil?"

"Nope, bought with about 400 dollars of groceries and other stuff at a Wal-Mart."

"No oil in the car..."

"You are full of shit, show me..."

I walk into the service bay and the mech shows me a can with about five ounces of oil in it.

"You too, are full of shit. The oil was full when I brought it in...Leave my car alone after you button it up."

I heard, later that day, to take it to Honda Cars of Corona. I call and teh service manager tells me that my model of car has been having trouble with cracked blocks in the "High Heat" states of Texas, Arizona and California. They had a "safety advisory" or something like that but no public campaign to do the fix. He tells me to get the car from the VV dealer, with out telling them what I was doing, and bring it to him. He would change the engine, gratis.

I do, he does. Great guy.

Wife's '09 Accord: Bad rear brakes, shot after 12K. Service dude tells me it is normal. I ask him if he thinks I am as stupid as the thinks I look. I then ask him if he can find someone who actually knows about cars.

He apologizes for his stupidity and tells me that they are experiencing problems with the rear brakes and there is a "Safety Advisory" about them but no recall. Lawsuit and all.

I tell him to fix the brakes. They do but refuse to pay for it because of the lawsuit. We get re-imbursed a few months later.

Paint on my '06 Civic: Clear coat peeling after only about 9 months. Honda tells me that it is because I work in the high desert (Apple Valley) and live in the Temecula area. I tell him he is full of shit and leave.

In 2013 I get a recall for the paint. By that time my car looks terrible. When I show it to the paint rep she says it is the worst she has ever seen. They finally repaint it. The clearcoat has made it past 9 months, hopefully it lasts a few years.

Honda a quality is a oxymoron.

Just sayin'
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This is the unfortunate reality. Not just with Honda, but with cars in general. Every manufacturer has its share of inadequacies. Some brands are overall better than some other brands, but none are immune from getting a touch of the recall influenza .

On the whole, modern cars are light years better than the cars of previous generations. They are infinitely safer, more reliable, more fuel efficient, more environmentally friendly etc. There are still plenty of bugs to sort out though.

I would never accuse Honda or Toyota of building "bad cars" (although they both have a few turds in their line ups), but I would also be the first one to call bullshit on their marketing hype. Over the last 20 years, those two brands have issued more individual safety recalls than all other Japanese brands combined when regarding cars sold in the US market. Some of those recalls are shockingly scary (Who remembers the Toyota recall for steering wheels that came off in drivers hands, or that became uncoupled from the steering rack?).

You can bet the farm that the overwhelming majority of people who owned those affected models gave glowing reviews about their new cars in the initial few months after purchase when filling out all of JD Power and other surveys that flood your mailbox after getting a new car. Two years later, when you're standing on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck with a steering wheel in your hand, it's a bit too late to change your answers. This is why all of these surveys are based on "initial quality". No shit Sherlock, of course the initial survey results are stewed by marketing and perception. If you just laid out $25-$50K on a new car that is supposed to be awesome according to the magazine ads and TV commercials, you're gonna say that it's awesome.

Very few cars, no matter how egregiously shitty, are going to suffer a significant failure in the short window between purchase and review. But, as I stated previously, people who wanted a V6 Accord, but could only afford a 4cyl Versa are going to bitch about every tiny imperfection the less expensive car has.
I'll bet when you bought that Civic, you very likely gave it a stellar review in some survey or other. What would you say about that car now if you got a survey in the mail asking about ten years of ownership?

Yup.
 
OGG said:
This is the unfortunate reality. Not just with Honda, but with cars in general. Every manufacturer has its share of inadequacies. Some brands are overall better than some other brands, but none are immune from getting a touch of the recall influenza .

On the whole, modern cars are light years better than the cars of previous generations. They are infinitely safer, more reliable, more fuel efficient, more environmentally friendly etc. There are still plenty of bugs to sort out though.

I would never accuse Honda or Toyota of building "bad cars" (although they both have a few turds in their line ups), but I would also be the first one to call bullshit on their marketing hype. Over the last 20 years, those two brands have issued more individual safety recalls than all other Japanese brands combined when regarding cars sold in the US market. Some of those recalls are shockingly scary (Who remembers the Toyota recall for steering wheels that came off in drivers hands, or that became uncoupled from the steering rack?).

You can bet the farm that the overwhelming majority of people who owned those affected models gave glowing reviews about their new cars in the initial few months after purchase when filling out all of JD Power and other surveys that flood your mailbox after getting a new car. Two years later, when you're standing on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck with a steering wheel in your hand, it's a bit too late to change your answers. This is why all of these surveys are based on "initial quality". No shit Sherlock, of course the initial survey results are stewed by marketing and perception. If you just laid out $25-$50K on a new car that is supposed to be awesome according to the magazine ads and TV commercials, you're gonna say that it's awesome.

Very few cars, no matter how egregiously shitty, are going to suffer a significant failure in the short window between purchase and review. But, as I stated previously, people who wanted a V6 Accord, but could only afford a 4cyl Versa are going to bitch about every tiny imperfection the less expensive car has.
I'll bet when you bought that Civic, you very likely gave it a stellar review in some survey or other. What would you say about that car now if you got a survey in the mail asking about ten years of ownership?

Yup.
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I don't do surveys for just the reason you noted: Not enough time to get over the honeymoon or for the real problems to show up.

I bought the honda based upon prior experience with the brand: My first car was a '78 civic wagon and it took a beating but kept going. My wife and I bought a '92 civic sedan, new, and it is still on the road;my son drives it. It is at the point of diminishing returns but my two oldest learned to drive in it and they both drove it in high school.

If I buy cheap (like my Festiva, which BTW was a great car that, unfortunately, was pile drived (?) by a drunk idiot in a lexus. He broke a headlight, my car was totalled.) I expect what I buy. I know the finish is not going to be perfect nor will it win beauty awards. It will be functional, I hope, and that is all I expect.

OTOH, if I pay 20K or more for a car I expect it to be, if not perfect, at least something that I will be able to drive for a few years. I do not buy new cars every two or three years; every one of my cars has always had more than 150K on the odometer before I even think about a new one.

I really do not expect a lot, just my money's worth. I hear you, though, about quality.
 
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