Hybrids

[Steverino]

I've got (actually it's one of the girls' cars) my hands full with this one.

Here is the battery bank, still in the rear of the car, a 2007 Toyota Camry.

Now, in the shop/shack, covers removed

And two spare cells that I'm hoping will take the place of two I've found to be low in voltage.

32 batteries, all but 2 are sitting at 8.2VDC. In a case like this, the car being 10 years old, the only real way to fix the problem is to buy an entire new bank, roughly between $1800 (reconditioned) and $3000.00 and up for a new bank.

If you own one of these, I highly suggest you unload it before it gets older than 7-8 years. Even if I get lucky and manage to get it running again by playing wack-a-mole by replacing individual cells, it won't stay that way for long, and I cannot sell it to an unsuspecting buyer without telling them the issue it has, so it's going to be painful.

I like the car other than the hybrid part, it's nice and comfy, all leather, nav, AC (that I just spent 800 bucks to have repaired last spring) and gets good mileage. But I can't trust it with this battery issue.

 

[Chicken Man]

I have new respect for my engineer friend who always seemed to be full of sh!t, but called this fifteen years ago when the hybrids came out.

 

[jp_nyc]

Hopefully Tesla will succeed as a battery maker and bring down the price of batteries.

 

[mongooz]

yea, i have two friends that had to replace the battery packs. $3000.
and hybrids are NOT green. where the fuck are those batteries going after they get removed from the car? yea.....green.
and how much money did you save in gas, when the $3000 bill comes up for a new battery pack?

never gonna own one. total p.c. bullshit.

(sorry, steve, but those things just piss me off)

 

[jp_nyc]

and hybrids are NOT green. where the fuck are those batteries going after they get removed from the car? yea.....green.

After removal isn’t the big problem. At least one recycling program already exists. The real problem is mining the chemicals that go into those batteries in the first place. We can’t even dig up that stuff where it exists in the USA because it’s all locked up in radioactive ore—the old mines were shut down because they produced so much radioactive waste and weren’t safe places to work. So Monogolia is developing toxic wastelands where it’s where Chinese companies mine and process it.

 

[Steverino]

yea, i have two friends that had to replace the battery packs. $3000.
and hybrids are NOT green. where the fuck are those batteries going after they get removed from the car? yea.....green.
and how much money did you save in gas, when the $3000 bill comes up for a new battery pack?

never gonna own one. total p.c. bullshit.

(sorry, steve, but those things just piss me off)

She got a good deal on it (I didn't even know she'd bought it) and now we know why. It did get her around for a couple of years, but now it's a case of trying to fix it, then sell it. I'm not going to BS buyers about it, so I don't expect to sell it for much which is a shame, as I said, it is a nice car except for those goddam batteries

When you have 3 kids all driving, you're in for a lot of this. Ol' Dad just can't go out and buy new cars for 3 girls.

 

[mongooz]

She got a good deal on it (I didn't even know she'd bought it) and now we know why. It did get her around for a couple of years, but now it's a case of trying to fix it, then sell it. I'm not going to BS buyers about it, so I don't expect to sell it for much which is a shame, as I said, it is a nice car except for those goddam batteries

When you have 3 kids all driving, you're in for a lot of this. Ol' Dad just can't go out and buy new cars for 3 girls.

yea....i get that. but they would be better off in a few used fiestas or other reliable high mile per gallon gas cars. in the end, it costs a lot less.

 

[Steverino]

yea....i get that. but they would be better off in a few used fiestas or other reliable high mile per gallon gas cars. in the end, it costs a lot less.

It aint easy keeping 5 cars going. Sometimes, you have to take what you can afford. The Camry, when running, gets good mileage, and I've always been a fan of the Camry, just not this kind

One's now married, so I'm off the hook with that one. The other two have been doing great, very proud of them. Dad's selling his tools. I still have the S10 now with a bad clutch or slave cylinder. Ten years ago, I'd have done it myself.

 

[2112]

After removal isn’t the big problem. At least one recycling program already exists. The real problem is mining the chemicals that go into those batteries in the first place. We can’t even dig up that stuff where it exists in the USA because it’s all locked up in radioactive ore—the old mines were shut down because they produced so much radioactive waste and weren’t safe places to work. So Monogolia is developing toxic wastelands where it’s where Chinese companies mine and process it.

Good links.

Truth is that there is at least one rare earth mine in the US that is, technically, operational but it is mothballed right now. It is just north of the California/Nevada state line in a place called Mountain Pass. You can see the mine as you travel on the I-15, to or from Vegas.

Yes, it has caused some messes when it was/is operational, and the process of mining the rare earth minerals produces radioactive by-products.

This mine, until recently (a decade or so ago), produced most of the RE minerals in the world. It was forced to cease operations due to environmental issues caused by wastewater leaks, and then re-opened after those issues were addressed. Unfortunately, the gap in operations allowed the Chinese to jump into the fray and take control of the RE market.

The mine, at this time, is mothballed not due to environmental issues, but due to the Chinese control of the RE market.

The US has the capability to produce it's own RE, but most of the manufacturing of our tech is done in China. They have imposed high tariffs on RE minerals not mined in China, thus inflating the price of tech produced with non-Chinese RE minerals.

Of course, that the Chinese government is far less concerned about hazardous/toxic by-products of mining, and any type of environmental issues that arise from such activities, helps them mine these minerals on the cheap compared to the cost of mining Mountain Pass.

I have long felt that hybrids, while technologically a fine idea, were more show than go when it comes to cost and environmental impact (production and salvage). The much higher cost of a hybrid outpaces any savings you may realize at the pump, and the relatively short life span of the battery packs makes owning a hybrid even more expensive in the long run.

To me it boils down to a facade that gives the uniformed the impression that hybrids are "clean and green" and a more environmentally friendly alternative to fossil fuels. They are, in fact, when on the road and during the operational life of the battery pack, but actual production and replacement does not seem to be that green.

Additionally: "Recycling" seems to be somewhat of a misnomer. In my judgement many think that recycling a battery means that the whole battery is given new life to be placed in another vehicle once the battery is "powered back up".

In truth, recycling merely means that any recoverable material is re-sourced, (after the battery is dismantled/crushed/destroyed). The recycling process itself is in no way "Green" as the byproducts of the process is very toxic, including disposing of a great amount of waste that cannot be re-used. The sulfuric acid in lead-acid batteries, for example, cannot be re-used and is, instead, neutralized and then disposed of at a hazardous waste site.

"Green" to me means that the process, from production, use and disposal, is much less harmful to the environment than the alternative. Other than the relatively short lifespan of use of a hybrid, I do not see much that indicates that this tech is "greener" than anything else today. As a matter of fact it may be more toxic to the environment.

I would rather automakers concentrate on hydrogen fuel cells that hybrid tech. I feel that in the long run hydrogen is a cheaper, more clean tech than battery hybrid tech.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

I would love the battery issue to be solved so I could go full electric/solar/any other way of generating electricity, for the home, and for a Tesla and/or similar. I would love to stop burning anything for power.

 

[Rick 381]

 

[2112]

I would love the battery issue to be solved so I could go full electric/solar/any other way of generating electricity, for the home, and for a Tesla and/or similar. I would love to stop burning anything for power.

I have no issues at all with cleaner tech for our society. While I am not all-in on environmental stuff, ( I feel that there are many questions/challenges that go unanswered, are glossed over, are not well-thought out), I do feel we have an obligation to protect our environment. Don't get me wrong: My feelings are not driven by the "survival" of the human race but of protecting as much of the earth's natural beauty.

Anyway...I am all for cleaner, better tech. Just not tech that promotes the appearance of cleaner, more environmentally safe, but in reality is merely another method of producing a whole lot of toxic by-products for "greener" results in another aspect, such as less carbon emissions while driving.

I do not believe hybrids address "green" in totality; they merely address one small aspect of "green", and not that well.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

I have no issues at all with cleaner tech for our society. While I am not all-in on environmental stuff, ( I feel that there are many questions/challenges that go unanswered, are glossed over, are not well-thought out), I do feel we have an obligation to protect our environment. Don't get me wrong: My feelings are not driven by the "survival" of the human race but of protecting as much of the earth's natural beauty.

Anyway...I am all for cleaner, better tech. Just not tech that promotes the appearance of cleaner, more environmentally safe, but in reality is merely another method of producing a whole lot of toxic by-products for "greener" results in another aspect, such as less carbon emissions while driving.

I do not believe hybrids address "green" in totality; they merely address one small aspect of "green", and not that well.

Yeah, so I would love for someone to solve the battery/energy storage issue.

 

[12Pack]

Cant you just get a really big extension chord?

 

[sunvalleylaw]

They are still working on it. (How to handle the batteries and mitigate environmental impact there). http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...r-batteries-when-the-car-is-retired/index.htm

And a thorough university study concludes that over the long run, there are good benefits from going down this path. As I said, hopefully there will be advances in the batteries/energy storage that will help. And hopefully solar will continue to improve to help with electricity production.

http://www.environment.ucla.edu/media/files/BatteryElectricVehicleLCA2012-rh-ptd.pdf

 

[mongooz]

Yeah, so I would love for someone to solve the battery/energy storage issue.

just use Li-ion batteries.....the problem will "solve" itself

 

[Steverino]

I've ordered 3 "new" cells at 40 bucks apiece from ebay. The cells are from a 2013. I guess I know what I'll be doing over the Turkey-Day weekend. I'll keep you all posted as to how it goes. I'd really like to get it running with no codes and drive it for a few weeks. If all's well, I'll clean it up and get it ready to sell. Maybe someone's got a banged up car with a good battery situation.

 

[Steverino]

Got the bank back together, reinstalled it, bolted it in, hooked all the wiring, 12v battery. Took it for a ten-mile ride, no issues, no codes.

I give it a week. We'll see.

 

[mikesr1963]

I would say well, I 'm in it now spend the $3000 and get another 9 or 10 years from it and basically drive it into the ground until it's not work a dime and either scrap it or get another battery and get another 9 or 10 years from it. That's where I am with my 99 van. I'm nursing it at the moment and will drive it locally. It's got 135,000 plus on it and I'll continue to maintain it until it drops.

 

[Steverino]

So far, so good. Cleaned it up today.

Damned shame, it's a really nice car, loaded, everything you can think of and everything works. I'm getting 36mpg.
I checked KBB and NADA, local CL ads are all shockingly low. Of course, on top of it being a hybrid, it's now ten years old with 161,000 miles.