Holding Volume down with distortion/fuzz

As I said in the Mike Campbell/Bad Influence thread, the other guitarist in my band wants me to turn down even more (and we are playing very quietly with the drummer using an electric kit). The drummer does not wish for me to turn down and says he likes my sound) He, the other guitarist, wants me to get an attenuator as I used the Concert last time. He is an older guy who enjoys his Suhr start through a boutique tweed amp, probably about a 20 amp.

We are playing Pearl Jam, Audioslave, Social D, Radiohead (Creep), and etc. To me, the songs do not sound right if there is not a good helping of hair on the guitar of various flavors, and at least a little air needs to be moving. But the Concert does need to get up and move before it can accomplish anything close to that. I do realize that I am relatively new to bands and that I need to be careful about wanting to hear myself like I would in my room at home. But there does seem to need to be a little noise and air moving with those tunes.

So I am going to try the Peavey next as it overdrives sooner and maybe I can get the distortion/fuzz I want with lower volume. It's sound is more direct though. I could always point the amp away from the other guy so it is not so direct and I can still get the tonz. If not, I might be interested in a smaller amp. What do you guys think?
 
Sounds like the other guitarist is asking for a better blend of the guitars. If he's using a 20w amp, then you'll have to go smaller to get the blend he wants. I also suspect that he's not driving his amp to break up as much as you, so he's not near your volume, and he'll feeling lost in the band mix. Now that's a lot of assuming, so I would suggest talking to him - guitarist to guitarist - apart from the practice time, to clarify why he's ask you for change, and to clarify what you both want in the sound. Sounds like you both might have some compromising to do.
 
@Stratguy sounds like a good idea. And using my c-30 instead of the concert is a good step too. It fills out and breaks up way sooner than the Fender. I am also trying to dial in my effects so that I an get the distortion etc without a large jump in volume. I am most of the way there but at low volume it is a challenge. We plan to play out eventually so some adjustment will be necessary again.

The drummer picked the songs and started the band and wants to rock some. The guitarist is used to a jam band sound but is flexible. A good discussion is in order.
 
As I said in the Mike Campbell/Bad Influence thread, the other guitarist in my band wants me to turn down even more (and we are playing very quietly with the drummer using an electric kit). The drummer does not wish for me to turn down and says he likes my sound)

Sounds like the three of you need to get on the same page.

Even the c30 might be a bit loud for the other guy if you need to crank it up to get 'your tone' out of it. You might want to utilize your board to provide the distortion/fuzz/hair you want with out needing to cook the amp up. Setup your clean tone, at band agreeable volume, then dial in your pedals for your gain tones at a band agreeable volume. Move the amp up off the deck closer to ear level if you are having a hard time hearing yourself.
 
To me, the songs do not sound right if there is not a good helping of hair on the guitar of various flavors, and at least a little air needs to be moving. But the Concert does need to get up and move before it can accomplish anything close to that. I do realize that I am relatively new to bands and that I need to be careful about wanting to hear myself like I would in my room at home. But there does seem to need to be a little noise and air moving with those tunes.

I do agree with about moving air which is why one of the major issues are always have guitarist blend together. However the first issue I would work on is the amount of hair needed. You may need to go to a smaller sized amp power wise to get the hair just right. But that can be addressed a little later in my dissertation. The drummer probably likes it because he can't hear what is going on.

1) Anyway, how do you guys setup when you practice?

That can make a big difference in the over all sound. Instrument placement is critical in blending. If both guitar amps are side by side, instant fail.

2) If separation of amps is okay, how and in which direction are they facing?

I find that amps sound best when coming from the side of the drumset. Drummer gets stereo and hears it all. Granted your amps are open backed. If they are closed, drop the cabinet slightly behind the drummer.

3) Who is singing in the band?

That makes a difference to as the last thing I want is an earfull of guitar from either side when the vocals are going. Use a volume pedal or control to back off when vocals are happening - especially during verses.

4) Stand out in front of the band when all is playing to hear the blend.

You can hear the blend for yourself and judge. To many times guitarist get into volumes wars. When I played in my Heart tribute, the other guitarist always played loud, I played softer trying to force him to turn down. Never worked and my singer would come to my amp and turn it up herself. Before you know it, we couldn't hear the vocals so everyone had to turn down. Fail from the beginning.

5) Use a lower powered amp

If you need hair, lower power amps are ideal. Plus it saves the voice of whoever is singing. Nothing worse the yelling to sing and ending the session sounding hoarse like Brian Johnson and being unable to talk again for a day or two.
 
Sounds like the three of you need to get on the same page.

Even the c30 might be a bit loud for the other guy if you need to crank it up to get 'your tone' out of it. You might want to utilize your board to provide the distortion/fuzz/hair you want with out needing to cook the amp up. Setup your clean tone, at band agreeable volume, then dial in your pedals for your gain tones at a band agreeable volume. Move the amp up off the deck closer to ear level if you are having a hard time hearing yourself.
The C-30 does not have to be too loud to break up for me, especially with pedals, and as you say, I am working on continuing to dial in the pedals.

The guitarist and I talked a bit this morning, about where we are musically He likes to hear the nuances that happen in a jam band, and I like the soft then loud approach of grungey rock is one oversimplified way to look at it. So definitely some compromise is in order. We discussed dialing everything in for very low volume for rehearsal as we learn the songs in the setlist, so we can talk about stuff as we go and get familiar and comfortable with the music, how we want to approach each song, and then add more volume and tone.

I do agree with about moving air which is why one of the major issues are always have guitarist blend together. However the first issue I would work on is the amount of hair needed. You may need to go to a smaller sized amp power wise to get the hair just right. But that can be addressed a little later in my dissertation. The drummer probably likes it because he can't hear what is going on.

1) Anyway, how do you guys setup when you practice?


That can make a big difference in the over all sound. Instrument placement is critical in blending. If both guitar amps are side by side, instant fail.

2) If separation of amps is okay, how and in which direction are they facing?

I find that amps sound best when coming from the side of the drumset. Drummer gets stereo and hears it all. Granted your amps are open backed. If they are closed, drop the cabinet slightly behind the drummer.

We have set up pretty funky the first time, in kind of a semi circle with the drummer across the room from me, and the other guitarist between us. Probably need to rearrange that. We can try something like you suggest. Both cabs are open back. My amp is a little bigger than his being 30W rather than 20W and as his is a tweed clone, my Peavey is definitely louder. Hopefully I can dial it back with pedals for rehearsal, and then we can play with it from there. Both the drummer and guitarist have PA equipment we can use and will use when and if we play out.

3) Who is singing in the band?

That makes a difference to as the last thing I want is an earfull of guitar from either side when the vocals are going. Use a volume pedal or control to back off when vocals are happening - especially during verses.
The drummer. See below regarding volume.
4) Stand out in front of the band when all is playing to hear the blend.

You can hear the blend for yourself and judge. To many times guitarist get into volumes wars. When I played in my Heart tribute, the other guitarist always played loud, I played softer trying to force him to turn down. Never worked and my singer would come to my amp and turn it up herself. Before you know it, we couldn't hear the vocals so everyone had to turn down. Fail from the beginning.

5) Use a lower powered amp

If you need hair, lower power amps are ideal. Plus it saves the voice of whoever is singing. Nothing worse the yelling to sing and ending the session sounding hoarse like Brian Johnson and being unable to talk again for a day or two.

After we reconfigure, we can stand out in front and check it out. If I need to get an amp after futzing, then I can start looking at that. I love tweed sounds, but since the other guy already has one, I might have to go for something different. Good thing there are a few good little lower powered amps that can take pedals and deliver crunch out there. And re: singing and the drummer, he also wanted to turn down as I now remember near the end of last practice, to save voice. I suppose I could find a used THD Hot plate or something too, but I could get a used smaller amp for near what they cost almost.
 
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I love tweed sounds, but since the other guy already has one, I might have to go for something different.

If you were to get some type of Tweed amp because you wanted too, I wouldn't worry about sounding the same as you won't. Your playing style, outboard gear and choice of guitars will already make you sound different.

Besides tone is in the hands!!!
 
If you were to get some type of Tweed amp because you wanted too, I wouldn't worry about sounding the same as you won't. Your playing style, outboard gear and choice of guitars will already make you sound different.

Besides tone is in the hands!!!
Well, we'll start with tweaking things around whilst using the C-30 and see how we do with that. If I need to shop, I will feel free to look into a small tweed sound. The other guy's sound is much different than mine. I also did some quick window shopping that included an Egnator Tweaker as a thought. But that is getting way ahead of myself. In any case, I am not thinking I want to spend the better part of $300 on an attenuator when I could get a smaller amp if I really need to. I am pretty sure re-configuring our placement of equipment, moving to my smaller amp, and dialing in the pedals will get us there or most of the way if we do some talking and compromising. If not, then time for amp shopping!

Oh, and about toanz being in the hands, I can do some work there too. Like most things, I can get a little tight and over muscle things sometimes. Backing off and using the instrument and gear more efficiently will help too.
 
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The c 30 should do what you want. Turn the pre up to get the hair and adjust the master vol to suit. This is on the distortion channel. Do not use the mid boosty button thing.
 
The c 30 should do what you want. Turn the pre up to get the hair and adjust the master vol to suit. This is on the distortion channel. Do not use the mid boosty button thing.

I am the opposite....hahahahahah.....

I like to turn the power amp up to about 5-6 and use the preamp to control the overall volume. I like to get to the sweetspot of the amp hence using lower powered amps. I then use my pedals for the different levels of boost and volume control on the guitar for clarity.
 
The c 30 should do what you want. Turn the pre up to get the hair and adjust the master vol to suit. This is on the distortion channel. Do not use the mid boosty button thing.
I am the opposite....hahahahahah.....

I like to turn the power amp up to about 5-6 and use the preamp to control the overall volume. I like to get to the sweetspot of the amp hence using lower powered amps. I then use my pedals for the different levels of boost and volume control on the guitar for clarity.

Well, nothing for it but to just mess around with it and figure it out. I tend to stay on the clean channel and just use pedals to mess with the hair, etc. I was recently trying to learn how to use my fuzz face clone dimed, then the volume knob of my guitar to control the fuzz and some volume. Also, playing with how to set the Rat clone and other dirt boxes to fill out the sound and/or add hair without drastically increasing the volume. This is all on the clean channel.

any thoughts on using the clean channel vs. the dirt channel on the C-30? @telecaster911 @Modern Saint
 
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I am the opposite....hahahahahah.....

I like to turn the power amp up to about 5-6 and use the preamp to control the overall volume. I like to get to the sweetspot of the amp hence using lower powered amps. I then use my pedals for the different levels of boost and volume control on the guitar for clarity.

Yes, but he's trying to go low volume.
 
Well, nothing for it but to just mess around with it and figure it out. I tend to stay on the clean channel and just use pedals to mess with the hair, etc. I was recently trying to learn how to use my fuzz face clone dimed, then the volume knob of my guitar to control the fuzz and some volume. Also, playing with how to set the Rat clone and other dirt boxes to fill out the sound and/or add hair without drastically increasing the volume. This is all on the clean channel.

any thoughts on using the clean channel vs. the dirt channel on the C-30? @telecaster911 @Modern Saint

I am all about the use of the clean channel. I have found dirt channel to not clean up very well when the guitar volume knob is reduced but try it both ways.

With the dirt channel, turn the preamp to zero. Turn your master to about 5-6 and slowly bring preamp up - use no pedals. As for your tone controls, run them at 12 o'clock so everything is flat with no tone control shaping. See if that sound works for you. Reduce guitar volume down to see if amp cleans up, if it does mark that guitar volume level. If you have numbers, it maybe between 6-7.

If all is sounding good. Try one of the boost pedals. Set to tone to 12, drive to 11 and match the volume to be just a notch above the guitar full open. See how that works and report back. Do that with all of your gain pedals individually.
 
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Well, nothing for it but to just mess around with it and figure it out. I tend to stay on the clean channel and just use pedals to mess with the hair, etc. I was recently trying to learn how to use my fuzz face clone dimed, then the volume knob of my guitar to control the fuzz and some volume. Also, playing with how to set the Rat clone and other dirt boxes to fill out the sound and/or add hair without drastically increasing the volume. This is all on the clean channel.

any thoughts on using the clean channel vs. the dirt channel on the C-30? @telecaster911 @Modern Saint

I'd just use the dirt channel tweaked to get the sound that you are going for. Then adjust the amp master volume.
 
Yes, but he's trying to go low volume.

Use the Preamp volume for the master. I prefer the power amp to be more open getting a rounder tone. Personally I feel that getting dirt from the preamp and the using the master volume for overall intensity to be to dynamic. There is a point that as you increase the master with the correct amount of dirt, the amp opens up to much and the volume goes up exponentially. Also the tone colors change big time when the master is turned up.
 
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