Car guys, for used car, Subaru Outback?, Forester?, or . . . ?

[Coralkong]

OK, well, fair enough.....

I used to like driving sticks, and my Jaguar has the option of automatic or you can throw it down into "Sport" mode and drive it like a manual. 98% of the time, though, it stays in "D". Every once in awhile, though....especially driving on some twisty mountain roads..... I like to unleash the kitty.

 

[Lerxst]

That'll run you about $7500 to $9000 private sale around here, svl

 

[Prages]

The key will be finding a used one that has had the timing belt and head gaskets done recently, and is otherwise reasonably clean and kept up. A few extra miles on a well maintained car is better than a few less on one that is all grimy and needs head gaskets.

Are head gaskets a known problem for these engines? I understand the timing belt concern, as I think it is usually recommended to change them every 80k miles or so, but unless the engine is prone to head gasket failure for some reason, I never consider head gaskets a maintenance item. I've racked up over 200k miles on several vehicles, and never once had a head gasket fail.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Are head gaskets a known problem for these engines? I understand the timing belt concern, as I think it is usually recommended to change them every 80k miles or so, but unless the engine is prone to head gasket failure for some reason, I never consider head gaskets a maintenance item. I've racked up over 200k miles on several vehicles, and never once had a head gasket fail.

Yes, head gaskets are a known suby issue. Good rigs, but until very recently, the head gaskets have been a weak spot. But that is true of a lot of high output 4 and 6 cylinder motors. Toyota for instance, at least with my 4 runner. Though I am still researching, I think if you replace with a higher quality head gasket, the problem will not resurface for a long time if at all.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-head-gasket-problems-explained/ for some explanation on the head gasket issues. Being an Alfa owner, I am pretty well sensitive to the issue. As I suspected, once the issue is handled, the car is good for a whole lot of miles.

Quote from the article:

"The good news!

We have yet to see a repaired and properly maintained vehicle have the same problem twice. And we feel that when the repair is done completely, it is a bump on the road to 300,000 miles.

Here is some of the technical information related to the gaskets used. . . ."

@Prages

 

[sunvalleylaw]

OK, well, fair enough.....

I used to like driving sticks, and my Jaguar has the option of automatic or you can throw it down into "Sport" mode and drive it like a manual. 98% of the time, though, it stays in "D". Every once in awhile, though....especially driving on some twisty mountain roads..... I like to unleash the kitty.

Frankly I am a bit torn about that for my own car I want to buy. I was wrestling with that when I was looking at VW's too. I understand you can shift when you want with the new sport modes, but still can't wrap my head around how you time gear engagement when you don't control the clutch, for downshifting, etc.

But for now, since we put the VW off until the kids are out of the house (mostly because I don't trust used gas model 1.2's and 2.0's and can't afford a TDI), I think getting a stick if I can find one will be fun. The VW's can come later when we buy again.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

That'll run you about $7500 to $9000 private sale around here, svl

You mean the 2008-09? Where are you!? That is quite a bit better than up around here. I am looking at least a couple grand more for a 2008/09 fitted with leather. And with regard to a stick, it seems like it is hard to find a model with leather with the manual. Heated and 8 way adjustable cloth seats, yes. I may end up going for cloth and get good seat covers it I have to.

As compared to a used Jetta TDI with low miles though, the two subys are like two for less than one if I spend about 4-5k on the kid car and 10-12 on ours. The used TDI's seem to be at least 20k. @Lerxst

 

[Lerxst]

Yes, head gaskets are a known suby issue. Good rigs, but until very recently, the head gaskets have been a weak spot. But that is true of a lot of high output 4 and 6 cylinder motors. Toyota for instance, at least with my 4 runner. Though I am still researching, I think if you replace with a higher quality head gasket, the problem will not resurface for a long time if at all.

Head gasket failures are notoriously high with subies due to design and material choices. It's inaccurate to suggest this is a common trait of many other engines

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Head gasket failures are notoriously high with subies due to design and material choices. It's inaccurate to suggest this is a common trait of many other engines

Ok, I am not sure "many" is correct. But in addition to Subaru,. Alfa and alfa designed motors have had similar issues, along with the Toyota 6, which had recall repairs. Not sure if the Alfa 6 that went into the Nissans a long time ago had similar issues or if Nissan fixed the issue before using the design.

 

[nuke_diver]

Can I ask what the attraction is for a manual transmission on that type of vehicle?

I can see wanting a sports car with a manual transmission, but why on a baby SUV with AWD?

I'm of the opinion that driving a manual tends to make you more aware of what is going on while driving. Since you cannot just set and forget...and start texting or surfing on your phone . I know that's somewhat of a generalization and there are bad drivers that have a manual tranny but it at least takes some of the opportunity away.

Good that your kid wants to learn to drive a stick, and on an older vehicle he should get better mileage (except that he's a kid so who know ). The new autos are much closer and in some cases better than manual (8 spd autos for example I think)

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Well, well . . . another possibility @reverend1 I had just said a used VW TDI was too expensive but a 2005 with 135k on it became available locally, asking $12.5. Hmm. I understand 135k is not much on a diesel if it has been well maintained, and perhaps 70k on a Suby may be nearly as much. Will have to go take a look, and have my mechanic check it out as a possibility. I actually really like that body style, and love the seating in that rig. Has had two prior local owners, and maintained locally. No problems except the turbo chip went out and had to be replaced. The suspension was all replaced by the first owner as well with some upgraded stuff. The current owner has the records but is not car guy enough to tell me what was done. Could be a good possibility. Rev, you are a VW guy. What do you think?

 

[reverend1]

Well, well . . . another possibility @reverend1 I had just said a used VW TDI was too expensive but a 2005 with 135k on it became available locally, asking $12.5. Hmm. I understand 135k is not much on a diesel if it has been well maintained, and perhaps 70k on a Suby may be nearly as much. Will have to go take a look, and have my mechanic check it out as a possibility. I actually really like that body style, and love the seating in that rig. Has had two prior local owners, and maintained locally. No problems except the turbo chip went out and had to be replaced. The suspension was all replaced by the first owner as well with some upgraded stuff. The current owner has the records but is not car guy enough to tell me what was done. Could be a good possibility. Rev, you are a VW guy. What do you think?

I would be leery of the suspension being replace and upgraded. Take it to your mechanic.

One of the most important things to find out is if the water pump and timing belt have been replaced. It is due at 130k and is expensive ($1,200). It might be the reason the owner is selling. Give it a through once over.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

I would be leery of the suspension being replace and upgraded. Take it to your mechanic.

One of the most important things to find out is if the water pump and timing belt have been replaced. It is due at 130k and is expensive ($1,200). It might be the reason the owner is selling. Give it a through once over.

Kelley Blue Book and Edmunds say the price is high, though I am not sure if this is a GLS or GL yet. It is leather I know, and the windows were tinted. Owned now by and architect, driven by the wife, now expecting a baby and want a bigger car. Will check it out, see if there is any reason for an upgraded price, and consider an offer if looks good. Ray (my mechanic) has owned and worked on TDI's and knows his way around suspensions and water pumps and timing belts. Will definitely have him check it over thoroughly.

 

[Lerxst]

FWIW, There's no such thing as a turbo chip in that car. The ecu controls all of the engine management parameters, including the turbo. It also controls much of the other car electronic systems including radio, HVAC, power Windows & locks, etc

 

[sunvalleylaw]

FWIW, There's no such thing as a turbo chip in that car. The ecu controls all of the engine management parameters, including the turbo. It also controls much of the other car electronic systems including radio, HVAC, power Windows & locks, etc

Huh. Not sure what the guy meant then. His local repair guys sent him down to Twin Falls to the dealer to handle whatever it was. Waiting to hear back if his wife will be available on her lunch hour for me to check out the car. Did a little surfing on a TDI forum I found looking for reviews and found this in the "B5" section that apparently covers these cars:

QUOTE: Very good advice and some solid Passat TDI ownership experiences from leicaman. We both purchased our Passat TDI's new and we both still own them today. What does that tell you ?

We have been noticing many threads and "potential buyer" / newbie questions, in the last several weeks, regarding the 2004 / 2005 Passat TDI (BHW) . I too have decided to help answer some of these Newbie questions.

My .02--- Do your homework and be educated. These are 10 year old cars. Cars are expensive to fix. They require maintenance and good quality parts, fluids and quality approved oils. This is the best Internet forum for anything Volkswagen TDI related. Pull up a chair and enjoy Fred's TDI Club. You will make some great friends and learn a lot about your car in the process.

With that being said, I really enjoy our 2005 Passat TDI ( BHW) Wagon. We bought it new and ten years later we still own it. We get 37 mpg in town and 44 mpg on the open road. Tons of performance with our RC1 program from Rocketchip and probably one of the best built cars we have ever owned. Like many other cars, the 04 /05 Passat TDI's with the (BHW) engine have some known issues and little quirks. Maintenance is the key !

Here are some of the most notable issues / concerns --

BALANCER SHAFT --- This is an item that needs to be updated by a highly skilled TDI Tech. There are several highly skilled TDI techs on this forum but only a handful of Techs around North America that have the tools and skills to perform this upgrade and do it properly. This is a very expensive update ! If you do not update from chain to gear drive; eventually you will TOOF the motor. Its about $3000 including labor, to have one upgraded to the gear driven balancer shaft system. If you wish to attempt it on your own; the parts will run you $1400-1500.

Camshaft-- These can prematurely wear out. This is most often because a VW dealer or Service shop used the WRONG OIL. This is a PD engine. It must have the correct specification of 505.01 OIL. Pentosin, Motul, Elf and Castrol brands come to mind. This too can be a pricey repair. USE THE CORRECT 505.01 OIL ! Learn to do your own oil changes.I like the Pentosin brand 5-40 weight High Performance II oil. I use the Pella 6000 oil extractor from www.jerrybleach.com and my oil changes are a snap.

Front suspension: -- A ten year old car with 100,000+ will most likely need the front suspension rebuilt--ball joints, tie rod ends etc. There is a comprehensive KIT available from www.boraparts.com or you can buy quality parts from VW. Special tools often required and some VW experience.

Transmission: A ten year old car with high miles could have a transmission go bad. This is not uncommon. This can be a very expensive fix ! Repair quotes for labor, a fresh VW remanufactured transmission, fresh torque converter and all new fresh fluids can range from $3500-4500. There are many owners who have experienced torque converter failures in these cars. My understanding is that the torque converter is what normally goes bad. The correct way, (just my opinion), to fix the whole transmission issue, is to simply install a quality remanufactured VW transmission package with new torque converter. It comes with a warranty. Another option is to replace just the torque converter only, which many have done. The transmission is a ZF brand 5 speed Automatic . The transmission model is -- ZF5HP19. These cars only came to North America with Automatics. Some enthusiasts are converting to manual transmissions, which is another possible option. I.e.- If it has a manual transmission and it is a 2004/2005 Passat TDI; it has most likely been converted by someone at some point in time.

A few other minor issues or concerns -- Relay 219. Relay 384. Changing out and updating the alternator pulley to the steel pulley-(stock is plastic). Leaking motor mounts are not uncommon. A quality under engine skid plate would also be a good idea and my recommendation. Both Evolution and Dieselgeek offer high quality skid plates. They will protect the highly vulnerable undercarriage from road debris and severe damage. www.dieselgeek.com ------ www.evolutionimport.com/skid-plates

Rusted front fenders: VW decided to install a chunk of foam on the inside fender lip of the Passat. It acts like a sponge and soaks up water and moisture. This usually leads to a rusty front fender. Many owners have been successful getting their fenders fixed with the VW rust perforation warranty. My advice is to remove the foam piece as soon as possible.

Sunroof Drain Tubes: Easy Fix. Make sure they are opened up and not clogged. Takes just a few minutes to perform this task.

Blower / Airbox Plenum: Easy Fix. The gasket /seal can go bad allowing water to seep into the car onto the passenger side front floor area. Water and electronics do not go well together. If you take it all apart and re-seal the box system, using the correct VW caulk; you will elimate any future water leakage / flooding concerns.

Thanks for reading. Hope all of this information is helpful and answers some questions. END QUOTE

So it looks like a thorough run through and check of the records is in order. @reverend1

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Test drive shots. Drove great. Beautiful inside and out. maybe one door ding, and a couple small paint chips on the rear bumper where you throw stuff in and out of the car. The inside seems almost new. Black leather in great shape. The service records should be showing up by email tonight and will have an inspection this next week if they look ok.

This is the form factor I want in a car. The thing for me will be to remember that in buying a used car, that I may be better off getting a used Suby for now and a newer TDI later if this one is in for some expensive repairs. But this one does seem nice.

 

[Prages]

That does look really clean...except for the pink running shoes and the baby seat.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

That does look really clean...except for the pink running shoes and the baby seat.

Those are the current owner's. Nice young lady, expecting number two. Needs more room for more baby seats.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Ok, so checking in again on this. After driving the above VW, I decided I really like the form factor of that car. I looked into the car on the TDI forum, and got sucked into the idea of finding a good overall unit for not too much dough, then doing some repair work to bring it up to speed. The repairs mentioned in the quote I found above seem to be common, but there are other ways to go about some of them. The car I found locally has been well maintained but will need some of these things ultimately. So . . . I find myself getting sucked into the idea of either buying this local car if I can get it at the right price to allow for repairs, or, finding another one and doing the same. Or, there is one I ran across where the guy did the repairs and mods, including a transmission swap to a manual (which I dig), such that it works and looks just as though it came that way from the factory. Gah! Am I going crazy here? The simple thing might be to go find a relatively low miles subaru and call it a day. But though I like the outback, it gets not nearly as good gas mileage, and will also have the normal wear and tear of those units to deal with, as I will have to get one with between 60-80k on it based on prices. I can get a fully dialed VW Passat TDI for that as well, with higher mileage than that, but with everything done, and a turbo diesel. One example that is available is a guy that contacted me from the TDI forum that has one he has done all the suspension, turbo, a "malone" tune that is desirable, the head gaskets, the camshaft, the rear main, put manual transmission in, etc. The car has 197k on it. he is asking $8500 which is 4k less than I was prepared to spend, and

So, get a subaru with 60-80k and deal with stuff that comes up on a car as you head toward 100k, or get a higher mileage VW turbo diesel that has been gone through completely.

More details on this updated one below:

It is not quite as nice as the one you are looking at but it is still very nice and all of the known issues have been delt with. It has been swapped over to a 5 speed manual which may turn some people off but it is much more dependable than the zf auto. Brand new camshaft, timing belt has another 40,000 miles left. It has the geared balance shaft module and the turbo was replaced with a new vag unit about 50,000 miles ago.
It has a staged tune from malone, currently a stage 2 but I am about to down grade to a stage 1 as it burns cleaner that way, and works better with the clutch. It will come with both tunes. I also deleted the egr but I still have it in case your state has emissions control. (I will probably have him put that back on as there is no real disadvantage that I can find, and I would rather do what I can to preserve Earth).

It runs like a freaking top, so much fun. Always garage kept.

It has 197,000 miles on it and it is parked for the winter so that will not go up. Once I have the new windshield installed and I put new tires on it I am going to ask $8500.

I talked a long while to the guy and he seems pretty darned straight up. the not quite as nice part is just a couple little dings that could be fixed, and a seat bolster issue that he will replace and fix to like new. Tempting.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

we are looking at two cars this weekend, for my wife. A Subaru OutbackXT with leather and a manual. This one looks to have been really well cared for and has had the normal maintenance issues done, and is "really dry" for a used subaru underneath. (meaning none of the normal leaks). Looks like a fun car.
http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/cto/4749666925.html

And, this very practical, but a lot less fun looking Honda CR-V. Outfitted with aftermarket leather over the heated seats, lower miles, better mileage, no manual, no turbo.

http://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/1785828?ad_cid=3

Cross posting this to the two active car shopping threads for discussion. Sorry for the repeat posts.

As far as the car for me, honing in on a good used Passat Wagon TDI, a little higher miles, but with all the major maintenance items and required mods having been done recently.