Help! Boutique Amps...what exactly are we paying for?

[Guitar Heel]

When I'm buying a guitar, I can see the quality of the wood, the number of pieces used for the body, the figure, the construction, the pickups, etc. I can easily see where my money's going. But for someone that doesn't have any understanding of amp design, what am I paying for if I purchase a $3000 amp?

 

[Lerxst]

...like custom guitars, it's really more about what the market will pay than any direct relationship between the parts and price.

 

[jaxn slim]

I think it's the same basic principles as a high-end guitar - high quality components, labor-intensive construction, and brand value

 

[IamSeaDevil]

You're paying for an amp that doesn't sound like ass. You'd be amazed how hard it is for mainstream amp makers to make a simple clean channel

 

[Mark Wein]

I think it's the same basic principles as a high-end guitar - high quality components, labor-intensive construction, and brand value

...like custom guitars, it's really more about what the market will pay than any direct relationship between the parts and price.

You're paying for an amp that doesn't sound like ass. You'd be amazed how hard it is for mainstream amp makers to make a simple clean channel

All of the above.

For me either I want something "that much" or not.

 

[OGG]

You're paying for an amp that doesn't sound like ass. You'd be amazed how hard it is for mainstream amp makers to make a simple clean channel

Hmmm, to me, the opposite is true. Plenty of amps ( virtually every Fender ever ) can do a great clean, it's the gain channel that often gargles donkey balls.

But the more I think about it, the problem with most amps is that they can do one or the other, but rarely both.

Until someone builds an affordable amp that seamlessly transforms between Roland JC120 clean, and Mesa Triple Recto while hitting all the sweet spots in between, boutique builders will have a market.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

 

[Mark Wein]

Hmmm, to me, the opposite is true. Plenty of amps ( virtually every Fender ever ) can do a great clean, it's the gain channel that often gargles donkey balls.

But the more I think about it, the problem with most amps is that they can do one or the other, but rarely both.

Until someone builds an affordable amp that seamlessly transforms between Roland JC120 clean, and Mesa Triple Recto while hitting all the sweet spots in between, boutique builders will have a market.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

I think it also depends on what kind of clean you are looking for. A JC120 has a sound that lots of people really love but it wouldn't work for me since I like to drive the amp to get a sound and put pedals on top of it. And if you are looking for a really good vintage aesthetic (sonically, not some tweed-covered hand grenade from Fender) that is a little more challenging for a company to mass produce (although it can be done nicely in a DIY kit as we've seen on the forum).

 

[Guitar Heel]

You're paying for an amp that doesn't sound like ass. You'd be amazed how hard it is for mainstream amp makers to make a simple clean channel

The clean is the thing for me, no doubt. I rarely switch over to the lead channel of my Traynor, for example, though it sounds great. I pretty much always use pedals.

 

[realtree71]

when your looking a a boutique amp as opposed to say a fender or marshal...etc.. Your typically going to get something a little more taylored to the sound your after..... your most likely going to get point to point or turret board wiring apposed to PC board circuits..... you may be going to get sound type of high end speaker(s) ie Jenson AlNiCo or Celestion AlNiCo that is more closely rated to the out put of your amp.

You'll be getting higher end capacitors and generally all higher end components.... Most likely one amp builder as apposed to a line of monkeys assembling....

I agree some Boutique builders out there rape you for a basic common design 5e3 that is in some sort of custom built fungshwa cabinet...

Some of them are building great quality products for value pricing.... LilDawg amps is one.... on the upper end can we still call a Dr Z amp boutique? I'd say so and his pricing is really still a a value in my opinion.

Check out Swamp Works Amplification...... They have some old faithful designs and they also work with you on the sound your trying to get and will actually design a circuit around that...... And their cabs look terrific, but your going to pay for a Swamp Works amp

I guess it boils down to do you really know what the sound is you want ...

I have a friend that can plug into anything and make that amp sound a 10000x better... and his attitude is similar, hell he will play anything that can be play'd and adjust accordingly .. He owns 1 gibson electric and a Carvin acoustic... 1 half stack.... and 1 1x12 combo thats it

 

[Help!I'maRock!]

In my case, when I bought my Allen Encore, I was paying for a modification of a classic circuit, and a configuration, that wasn't available through a major manufacturer. Additionally, I was paying for a new piece of equipment as opposed to a vintage amp, and bypassing the maintenance costs associated with upkeep.

The "boutique" amp I'm currently drooling over is the Dr Z Maz 18. I haven't quite found anything at a lower price that sounds the way it does, though I'm certain I could find something similar if I really looked for it.

To me, boutique amps are less about hand-built and more about solidly built products that sound good, with the tweaks I'm looking for. If I could find a Vibrolux Reverb with a control to remove the tone stack for $500, I'd certainly do so.

 

[Mark Wein]

Additionally, I was paying for a new piece of equipment as opposed to a vintage amp, and bypassing the maintenance costs associated with upkeep.

This is a big deal for me.

 

[Wyatt]

There is a surprising low profit margin on amp building. Dr. Z broke down his pricing over a the Amp Garage one time, ...

Lets say:

675.88 for parts cost
390.00 for labor;assembly , QA, Cab completetion, play test QA, and
boxing/shipping, appox 15 hrs @$26.00/hr
1065.88 total cost of assembly
x2.5 mark up for list price quote
2664.70 List price for Standard color Z-Wreck head ( rounded up to
$2699.00 )

Now I wholesale my amps and do not sell direct, and 2.5X covers my overhead and a small profit per unit. So to stay healthy and in business
I need to ship at least 8 Z-Amps / day, which we do .

He doesn't mention what the wholesale price is. That list price includes the dealer's cut.

The smaller the shop, the more overhead you have to build into each amp's price. A small or one-man shop has less buying power for supplies, and lower production, so they have to earn back more per amp. The man behind Soultone amps was doing great until he got sick, then amps missed deadlines and his revenue stream was disrupted...if you don;t ship product, you don't get paid, but the bills kept coming; by the time he had recovered, his credit was ruined and he could no longer get parts upfront...Soultone closed. Lots of amp builders close. It's just that tight despite the high price.

Here's what you should get for that money...a great, reliable amp from a professional craftsman, maybe even some custom tuning to taste. Can you often get this without buying boutique...mostly, but you make a choice to support a craftsman. In theory you get a great warranty with personal service; in reality... lots of amp builders close and that warranty is worthless.

And I totally agree..a great-sounding clean channel is the hardest thing to design.

 

[CBHScott]

There is a surprising low profit margin on amp building. Dr. Z broke down his pricing over a the Amp Garage one time, ...



He doesn't mention what the wholesale price is. That list price includes the dealer's cut.

The smaller the shop, the more overhead you have to build into each amp's price. A small or one-man shop has less buying power for supplies, and lower production, so they have to earn back more per amp. The man behind Soultone amps was doing great until he got sick, then amps missed deadlines and his revenue stream was disrupted...if you don;t ship product, you don't get paid, but the bills kept coming; by the time he had recovered, his credit was ruined and he could no longer get parts upfront...Soultone closed. Lots of amp builders close. It's just that tight despite the high price.

Here's what you should get for that money...a great, reliable amp from a professional craftsman, maybe even some custom tuning to taste. Can you often get this without buying boutique...mostly, but you make a choice to support a craftsman. In theory you get a great warranty with personal service; in reality... lots of amp builders close and that warranty is worthless.

And I totally agree..a great-sounding clean channel is the hardest thing to design.

Thanks as usual for the info, Wyatt . That is a great breakdown and an honest explanation for why sometimes "boutique" is pricey.

While the parts costs seem a bit expensive IMO (and maybe I'm missing something), the labor cost actually is quite reasonable - lower than I would have expected.

When I look at some of Mark's DAG/RG daily pieces and about throw up my breakfast as to the ridiculous $$ some ask for, I would like to see a similar breakdown to justify THEIR asking price .

 

[baimun]

Quite often, you are paying for the product of someone's lifetime of knowledge.... not just a trained employee's skill. Tough to put a small price on something like that.

 

[Wyatt]

Quite often, you are paying for the product of someone's lifetime of knowledge.... not just a trained employee's skill. Tough to put a small price on something like that.

Honestly, it the other way around. Its the lifetime of skills...the average one-man boutique builder is someone with great soldering skills (usually acquired in the USAF or USN) and great fabrication skills hat will build a solid, overbuilt, mil-spec product. That's why so many boutique amps are clones of or based heavily on existing circuits. These days many of them are basing their work off stuff they find online. When you move to larger boutiques, the guys who have the knowledge design the amps rarely build them.

People like Ken Fischer are few and far between.

 

[Wyatt]

There is a big discuss over at TGP right now of the business practice of taking a huge payment ($1000 or more), just for the place on a waiting list that often is nine months or longer. This is really poor business practice that demonstrates the company does not have good cash flow, and shows a risk the company may not make it to your turn in line. But there will always be fools who are happy to be parted with their cash with the promise of exclusivity.

 

[Mark Wein]

There is a big discuss over at TGP right now of the business practice of taking a huge payment ($1000 or more), just for the place on a waiting list that often is nine months or longer. This is really poor business practice that demonstrates the company does not have good cash flow, and shows a risk the company may not make it to your turn in line. But there will always be fools who are happy to be parted with their cash with the promise of exclusivity.

Yeah... I don't understand this at all. I can put down a deposit in good faith if I'm ordering a custom build but the waiting list thing is ridiculous. And with the amount of small builders I see go south just on tgp alone it's a foolhardy gesture.

 

[Tig]

Then stay away from custom lugged steel bike frame masters. Some waiting lists top 3 years!

 

[Modern Saint]

There is a big discuss over at TGP right now of the business practice of taking a huge payment ($1000 or more), just for the place on a waiting list that often is nine months or longer. This is really poor business practice that demonstrates the company does not have good cash flow, and shows a risk the company may not make it to your turn in line. But there will always be fools who are happy to be parted with their cash with the promise of exclusivity.

Mesa/Boogie was the same way back in the late 70's. They required 50% payment in order to begin your amp and the remaining to complete your amp. I don't believe that this practice has really changed outside of the waiting time frame.

I remember that because when I ordered my Mark IIB, I had to go through that exact process. Only difference was that I sent the balance 2 months later and within a few weeks I was at the Airbourne Express depot picking up my new amp.

 

[Mark Wein]

Mesa/Boogie was the same way back in the late 70's. They required 50% payment in order to begin your amp and the remaining to complete your amp. I don't believe that this practice has really changed outside of the waiting time frame.

I remember that because when I ordered my Mark IIB, I had to go through that exact process. Only difference was that I sent the balance 2 months later and within a few weeks I was at the Airbourne Express depot picking up my new amp.

Dumble was famous for that too. I knew a guy in college (actually a friend of El Borrachito's) who ordered a Dumble in the early 90's. At that point the process was to pay the full amount of $5500 and then wait for two years. You were told that if you pestered Howard about the build you'd lose your deposit and go to the back of the line. This guy waited almost two and a half years and then finally called to find out that Howard had given his amp to Jackson Brown and he'd have to wait even longer. I never heard how that story finally turned out.