So, you know how my Pro Tools mixes were kind of weak sounding?

[Prages]

I struggled with my first few Pro Tools sessions because while I was mixing and mastering, things sounded good to me, but then when I'd post them here, I'd get lots of comments about how it was lacking low end and sounded kind of weak compared to my older recordings.

Well, I think I've finally figured out why that is.

I finished recording and mixing/mastering my recordingfest entry this morning. I bounced the mix/master down to a wave file and also as an mp3. Then I burned both to a CD to listen to on the way to work.

The mp3 is much quieter and lacks a lot of punch that is present in the wave file.

So, I think my problem all along has been my mp3 encoder. I used Musicmatch Jukebox on my old computer, but I've been using either Windows Media Player or encoding direct to mp3 from Pro Tools on the new system. Even at 192kbps sample rate, the mp3 sounds like crap compared to the wave file, and on the old system, I could barely hear a difference between mp3 and wave, even when I encoded the mp3 at 128 kbps.

So, I think I'm going to try to get Musicmatch on my new machine and see if that solves my problems.

Just thought I'd share.

[Mark Wein]

Why not spend the $20 for the mp3 encoder for ProTools? Then you can export straight out of it at whatever quality you need.

[Kerouac]

Avid CHARGES you for a fucking mp3 encoder?

[Prages]

Why not spend the $20 for the mp3 encoder for ProTools? Then you can export straight out of it at whatever quality you need.

The mp3 encoder is standard on Pro-Tools 9, and that's what I used this morning, yet the mp3 still sounds like crap compared to the wave file. I made no adjustments at all. Bounced to wave, then when that was done, bounced to mp3 at 192 kbps. Maybe there are some advanced settings I can fiddle with or something.

[Mark Wein]

The mp3 encoder is standard on Pro-Tools 9, and that's what I used this morning, yet the mp3 still sounds like crap compared to the wave file. I made no adjustments at all. Bounced to wave, then when that was done, bounced to mp3 at 192 kbps. Maybe there are some advanced settings I can fiddle with or something.

Well, it isn't going to sound as good as the wav no matter what you do due to the file compression but I'd set the rate to something much higher.

[Kerouac]

The mp3 encoder is standard on Pro-Tools 9, and that's what I used this morning, yet the mp3 still sounds like crap compared to the wave file. I made no adjustments at all. Bounced to wave, then when that was done, bounced to mp3 at 192 kbps. Maybe there are some advanced settings I can fiddle with or something.

I always bounce mp3s at 320 and uncheck the box to filter below 10hz. Out of curiosity, are you recording at 24/48? It might be a dither issue.

[Prages]

I always bounce mp3s at 320 and uncheck the box to filter below 10hz. Out of curiosity, are you recording at 24/48? It might be a dither issue.

I'll have to play around with the settings. I didn't even look at what they were other than the bit rate.

FWIW, I've always done mp3s at 192 in the past and they've come out sounding pretty damned good. 320 kbps would result in a pretty large file (12mb+) wouldn't it?

[Prages]

I've been reading the manual.

It's given me a few ideas of what I might need to do to get my final mix sounding the way I want it to. I'll give them a shot the next time I'm messing with it.

[Kerouac]

I'll have to play around with the settings. I didn't even look at what they were other than the bit rate.

FWIW, I've always done mp3s at 192 in the past and they've come out sounding pretty damned good. 320 kbps would result in a pretty large file (12mb+) wouldn't it?

Most usually are in the 6-12 range, depending on length. I did a backing track for a student yesterday and bounced at 320 and it came out to 5.7.

[Prages]

After reading the manual, I'm thinking some of my problem is that I'm not using a dithering plugin on the master fader. I never did with Cubase, but it may have automatically dithered. I thought Pro Tools did as well since you can select the bit rate on mix down, but according to the manual you are still supposed to use a dithering plugin when mixing from 24 bit to 16.

So, tonight I'm planning on playing round with it. I've got the thing sounding great when I'm monitoring it in Pro Tools, so I think it's probably just a matter of me not doing something right with dithering/encoding.

[Kerouac]

After reading the manual, I'm thinking some of my problem is that I'm not using a dithering plugin on the master fader. I never did with Cubase, but it may have automatically dithered. I thought Pro Tools did as well since you can select the bit rate on mix down, but according to the manual you are still supposed to use a dithering plugin when mixing from 24 bit to 16.

So, tonight I'm planning on playing round with it. I've got the thing sounding great when I'm monitoring it in Pro Tools, so I think it's probably just a matter of me not doing something right with dithering/encoding.

That's kinda weird. You insert it as a plug on the master output? I've never seen a dither control outside of of the Export screen. I guess I need to start learning more about PT.

[Prages]

That's kinda weird. You insert it as a plug on the master output? I've never seen a dither control outside of of the Export screen. I guess I need to start learning more about PT.

From the manual:

Dithering

Dither can significantly improve audio quality
when reducing the bit depth of digital audio.

When to Use a Dither Plug-In

You should use a dither plug-in in any situation
where you are reducing bit depth, for example,
when mixing down to a 16-bit file with the
Bounce to Disk command, or when sending
your final mix to an external digital device that
records at 16-bit resolution.
A dither plug-in is necessary even when mixing
down to 16-bit from a 16-bit session. Even
though 16-bit sessions use 16-bit files, they are
still processed at higher internal bit depths.

• Pro Tools|HD systems use 24-bit audio input
and output signal paths, and internal 48-bit
mixing and processing

• Pro Tools systems use 24-bit audio input and
output signal paths, and internal 32-bit floating
point processing for mixing and audio
processing

For this reason, whether you are working with a
24-bit session or a 16-bit session, the following
are recommended:

• When mixing down to a 16-bit destination,
use a dither plug-in on the main output.

• When bus recording a submix to a track in the
same session, do not use a dither plug-in on
the destination track.

• When mixing down to a 24-bit destination,
do not use a dither plug-in on the main
output.

• When mixing down to an analog destination
with any 24-bit capable interface, do not use a
dither plug-in on the main output.

During normal recording and playback, bypass
any dither plug-in on the main output.

Bounce to Disk and Dither

Bouncing to disk does not apply dither when reducing
bit depth. To apply dither when bouncing
to disk, you should insert a dither plug-in as
the last processor in the signal path on a Master
Fader assigned to the bounce source audio output
path.

Using a dither plug-in on a Master Fader is preferable
to an Auxiliary Input because Master
Fader inserts are post-fader. As a post-fader insert,
the dither plug-in can process changes in
Master Fader level.

If you do not use a dither plug-in on your
bounce source path, and you choose to convert
to a lower resolution during or after bouncing to
disk, the resulting file will be converted by truncation.

[smorgdonkey]

See if Audiograbber is still available on the net.

It is awesome. You can just drag the wav file into the window and let it go.

[Punchy]

Audiograbber is still available. . . 1.83 I think is the final version. Don't recall if it'll do 24-bit though. . .

Although Audiograbber uses external mp3 encoders anyway. . .

[Knox in Box]

Format factory

Or...

I just used to use my iTunes software to convert with my old covers before I actually paid for a program.

[ken]

Pro Tools 9 and beyond has a free MP3 encoder. iTunes' MP3 encoder is good. I've never had a problem converting WAV files to MP3 with either, nor have I noticed a marked decrease in volume. And this is without any fiddling under the hood. I don't know what the problem might be, but at 192kbps or above, it sounds fine. I don't know what would account for the decrease in volume or marked difference in sound. I've been doing it the same way since Pro Tools 5.1 and with iTunes (that'd be about ten years now) and never noticed a difference, so I'm curious about what's going on with the OP.

I don't always use a dithering plugin on the master buss in Pro Tools. A/B 'em and see whether it makes a difference or not. Personally, I don't think it's always necessary, but then again, I make the math easy by recording at 44.1kHz. Unless you are recording for film or for some other compelling reason, if you are intend your music to go to CD or MP3, I wouldn't bother with 48kHz recording. And if you are going to use higher sampling frequencies, I'd do 88.2kHz so it's halved to 44.1kHz just to make sure there's no funny math computations. Bear in mind that I don't have a firm basis for this, and don't want to perpetuate internet rumors, but it's still not a bad idea to make certain.

-Ken
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
my photography site - kenleephotography.com
my recording studio - blueberrybuddha.com
NEW! my new music project - cdbaby.com/cd/mercuryseven/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Kerouac]

Holy crap, I seem to remember you from another forum! You're at HC and over at Tweakheadz, right? Welcome.

[paulskirocks]

Heya Ken!

[ken]

Heya Ken!

[ken]

Holy crap, I seem to remember you from another forum! You're at HC and over at Tweakheadz, right? Welcome.

Yes, I'm on Craig and Phil's forum over on HC, but not Tweakheadz. I remember you mostly from Phil's forum! Good to "see" you!!!!

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

[paulskirocks]

Let's see... I remember ken from... um... Oh yea, it was ken who brought me to HC a bunch of years ago... I think I remember ken from before that... Oh yea, now I recall, we graduated high school together in '82...

In fact, Ken was one of the few people that seriously encouraged me to stick with playing the guitar...

[Mark Wein]

Ken needs to share some clips and pics of the guitar you build for him.

[Kerouac]

Yes, I'm on Craig and Phil's forum over on HC, but not Tweakheadz. I remember you mostly from Phil's forum! Good to "see" you!!!!

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

Yeah, I remember you posting some pics of your studio. It's beautiful.

[paulskirocks]

Ken needs to share some clips and pics of the guitar you build for him.

[paulskirocks]

Hey, it occurs to me that if Ken hadn't have helped HC be one step lower by bringing me around there, I would never have experienced HC 2.0 chaos that brought me here to lower the grade curve at MWGL...

[ken]

Let's see... I remember ken from... um... Oh yea, it was ken who brought me to HC a bunch of years ago... I think I remember ken from before that... Oh yea, now I recall, we graduated high school together in '82...

In fact, Ken was one of the few people that seriously encouraged me to stick with playing the guitar...

Never let anyone discourage you from doing something you love. Assuming it's not harmful to little kids or something...

I remember Paul because...well, he's basically my towheaded brother.

[ken]

Ken needs to share some clips and pics of the guitar you build for him.

It would be my pleasure. This is an absolutely beautiful guitar, both in appearance and sound, and is one of the best gifts I've ever received. I've been using it to record a bunch of tracks. Here's a link to a bunch of photos and more info about the guitar on my website:
http://www.elevenshadows.com/travels...dcustomguitar/

[ken]

Hey, it occurs to me that if Ken hadn't have helped HC be one step lower by bringing me around there, I would never have experienced HC 2.0 chaos that brought me here to lower the grade curve at MWGL...

That was freakin' horrible. I stuck it out. Craig's a friend, and I've been posting on his SSS forum since 1995. It's HC, so the signal-to-noise ratio sucks, but whatever.

[paulskirocks]

Ken, you need to upload an avatar...

[ken]

Yeah, I remember you posting some pics of your studio. It's beautiful.

You must have my confused with some other Ken.

It's a modest studio in a small house. I'm totally lucky I've got some good mics and preamps and sort of know what I'm doing, but it's in a small house. I just try and work around some of the shortcomings and try and get a great sound.

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

[ken]

Dammit, I'm supposed to be working!!!!

[paulskirocks]

Dammit, I'm supposed to be working!!!!

Me, too... I'm overwhelmed, so I think I'll screw off on the internet instead...

[smorgdonkey]

Yes, I'm on Craig and Phil's forum over on HC, but not Tweakheadz. I remember you mostly from Phil's forum! Good to "see" you!!!!

Ken

I think I am a member on Phil's forum but I have wiped my hard drive and don't even remember the forum's name!

[ken]

Phil rules. He's an amazing recording engineer and good friend. I've recorded at his studio with him quite a few times and hung out with him, and he's a really great human being and engineer/producer.

I'm not sure about the name. Google "Phil O'Keefe" and "Harmony Central" and it should come up. I think his forum is called "In the Recording Trenches" or something like that.

We were talking about mixing in Pro Tools...I'm here less than 24 hours and I've already managed to derail one thread! Don't worry, there's much more of that to come!!

[Mark Wein]

.I'm here less than 24 hours and I've already managed to derail one thread! Don't worry, there's much more of that to come!!

thats how we roll here anyway

[Kerouac]

You must have my confused with some other Ken.

It's a modest studio in a small house. I'm totally lucky I've got some good mics and preamps and sort of know what I'm doing, but it's in a small house. I just try and work around some of the shortcomings and try and get a great sound.

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

Natural wood floors and lots of warm colours? Cool backyard too IIRC.

It's not the size of it, it's how you use it.

[ken]

Natural wood floors and lots of warm colours? Cool backyard too IIRC.

It's not the size of it, it's how you use it.

That's it. Persian carpet, Indian and Himalayan Buddhist decorations, nice hang-out area in the back yard, that kind of thing.

I use a bunch of RealTraps MiniTraps and other stuff to try and treat the room, which works really well. I use those treatments for everything, including drums.

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

[Kerouac]

That's it. Persian carpet, Indian and Himalayan Buddhist decorations, nice hang-out area in the back yard, that kind of thing.

I use a bunch of RealTraps MiniTraps and other stuff to try and treat the room, which works really well. I use those treatments for everything, including drums.

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

I really need to get to work on treatment. El Borrachito (another forumite here) heped me with a room design plan but I just haven't been able to get it all done. I've got long term plans to re-do hardwood floors throughout the house, clouds over the mixing position, drumset, etc, but I keep buying gear instead.

[Kerouac]

That's it. Persian carpet, Indian and Himalayan Buddhist decorations, nice hang-out area in the back yard, that kind of thing.

I use a bunch of RealTraps MiniTraps and other stuff to try and treat the room, which works really well. I use those treatments for everything, including drums.

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

I really need to get to work on treatment. El Borrachito (another forumite here) heped me with a room design plan but I just haven't been able to get it all done. I've got long term plans to re-do hardwood floors throughout the house, clouds over the mixing position, drumset, etc, but I keep buying gear instead.

[Prages]

Welcome, Ken.

I think my Pro Tools problems were all just me being used to working on Cubase SX and suddenly changing everything about the way I record. I'm slowly but surely getting 'my sound' back.

Nice guitar.

[Mark Wein]

It would be my pleasure. This is an absolutely beautiful guitar, both in appearance and sound, and is one of the best gifts I've ever received. I've been using it to record a bunch of tracks. Here's a link to a bunch of photos and more info about the guitar on my website:
http://www.elevenshadows.com/travels...dcustomguitar/

I dig the pictures!

[ken]

Welcome, Ken.

I think my Pro Tools problems were all just me being used to working on Cubase SX and suddenly changing everything about the way I record. I'm slowly but surely getting 'my sound' back.

Nice guitar.

Thanks (and thanks Mark!). It's a beautiful guitar, and I'm glad you like the photos.

That's good to hear. Sometimes it's good to mute your plugins of a particular track and listen to the original sound. Sometimes, if you're like me, you can lose the forest for the trees if you are working on something in particular, and just lose sight of the whole mix or vibe.

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

[ken]

I really need to get to work on treatment. El Borrachito (another forumite here) heped me with a room design plan but I just haven't been able to get it all done. I've got long term plans to re-do hardwood floors throughout the house, clouds over the mixing position, drumset, etc, but I keep buying gear instead.

Sound treatment IS gear!! Buy, buy, buy...keep this economy moving!!!

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

[Kerouac]

Sound treatment IS gear!! Buy, buy, buy...keep this economy moving!!!

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

I really want to DIY to keep the costs down, but my lack of handiness and lack of tools makes it difficult. I have a friend who has all that stuff and want to build them too, but so far th's never actually happened. Sourcing the OC703/Rockwool has been hard too. I'll probably break down and buy pre-built ones at some point, but that's going to hurt.

[paulskirocks]

I encourage Ken to stimulate the economy via studio gear purchases... Now, the big question is, what direction will I take my next album project when I next record at Blueberry Studios?

[Kerouac]

I encourage Ken to stimulate the economy via studio gear purchases... Now, the big question is, what direction will I take my next album project when I next record at Blueberry Studios?

Definitely Tom Waits covers. With Peeker.

[paulskirocks]

Definitely Tom Waits covers. With Peeker.

That could be a lot of fun... I can actually sing like that...

[ken]

I really want to DIY to keep the costs down, but my lack of handiness and lack of tools makes it difficult. I have a friend who has all that stuff and want to build them too, but so far th's never actually happened. Sourcing the OC703/Rockwool has been hard too. I'll probably break down and buy pre-built ones at some point, but that's going to hurt.

There are these pre-made bags that can fit over the 703 and then can, I believe, hang from the wall. I cannot remember the name of this. At least one of the manufacturers of these bags seems to get in giant pissing matches with Ethan Winer, who makes RealTraps.

There's also a Primacoustics room kit that seems fairly cheap, although I don't know how good it is...but Primacoustics makes the amazing Recoil Stabilizer pad, which absolutely fookin' rules, so their room kit might be good as well.

Another thing you can do is, rather than treat the room, you could consider getting one of those sE Vocal Booths or whatever they're called. They're not cheap, but you can take a lot of the unwanted reflections out of the room by using this with a microphone. You can get the project model for about $200, and the nicer version for about $300.

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

[ken]

I just remembered the name: sE Electronics Reflexion Filter. I own the $200 one. It alters the sound of the microphone, whether it's in cardioid or omni, but so far, not in a bad way, and if depending on your mic placement relative to the filter, it can be subtle. And what I mean by that is the frequency response, not the obvious alteration of the ambience of the room.

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography

[ken]

I encourage Ken to stimulate the economy via studio gear purchases... Now, the big question is, what direction will I take my next album project when I next record at Blueberry Studios?

I'm trying to cut down on those sorts of things. They're usually computer-related purchases now since I have all the hardware (mics, compressors, preamps) I really need.

As for your music, I hope it's tight and groovin' whatever it is, whether it's metal, hard rock, bluegrass, folk, or some genre not yet invented.

Ken
www.blueberrybuddha.com - studio
www.kenleephotography.com - photography