One guy's take on learning scales: What do you think of #5?

BlackCat

BlackCat

American Greaser
http://guitarsworlds.blogspot.com/2014/08/5-things-youd-better-know-if-you.html

5. Avoid The CAGED System

Even though this system of playing guitar scales is quite popular among some guitar teachers, it is NEVER used by world class virtuoso guitar players because it places a huge number of restrictions on your ability to freely use scales in music. Without writing a 100 page dissertation about all the flaws of the CAGED system, its single biggest weakness is that it is not based on how scales ACTUALLY work in music for all instruments and is instead intended to create a shortcut only for guitar players by exploiting several isolated and completely illogical visual shapes on guitar (that, by the way, only work in standard tuning' and become totally useless in drop tunings or open tunings). The result of such a crippling system is that guitarists remain forever restricted in the way they can use scales musically and cannot play scales all over the guitar on the same level as other musicians who have a real and complete understanding of how scales are supposed to work in music. Fortunately, the complete and most efficient ways of practicing scales on guitar are not any more difficult to learn and understand than the (much flawed) CAGED system.
 
Just because it only works in standard tuning doesn't mean it lacks value. Most guitarists can't play outside of standard tuning anyway. So learn CAGED and then learn how to move past it.
 
BlackCat said:
http://guitarsworlds.blogspot.com/2014/08/5-things-youd-better-know-if-you.html

5. Avoid The CAGED System

Even though this system of playing guitar scales is quite popular among some guitar teachers, it is NEVER used by world class virtuoso guitar players because it places a huge number of restrictions on your ability to freely use scales in music. Without writing a 100 page dissertation about all the flaws of the CAGED system, its single biggest weakness is that it is not based on how scales ACTUALLY work in music for all instruments and is instead intended to create a shortcut only for guitar players by exploiting several isolated and completely illogical visual shapes on guitar (that, by the way, only work in standard tuning' and become totally useless in drop tunings or open tunings). The result of such a crippling system is that guitarists remain forever restricted in the way they can use scales musically and cannot play scales all over the guitar on the same level as other musicians who have a real and complete understanding of how scales are supposed to work in music. Fortunately, the complete and most efficient ways of practicing scales on guitar are not any more difficult to learn and understand than the (much flawed) CAGED system.
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Well, that is the problem if all you are doing is memorizing a few finger patterns. I teach the CAGED system as a stepping stone to fretboard comprehension because it allows you to learn the fretboard in digestible bites. Then we expand beyond it to the point where it is not a consideration.
 
The CAGED system is like every other system imo. All of them strive to make the memorizing part of the equation easier (which is a VERY important part of the journey). All of them should be examined IMO. But none of them are damaging per se. A reliance on anything, or a forcing of concepts upon music is always a bad thing. But our journey goes on FAAAARRRR beyond all these systems. This is a lifelong journey to mastery. One day CAGED will be but a distant memory in your developmental stages as it should be. But I would never avoid learning anything that interests you. It's what makes a player who he/she ultimately is.

I agree with a lot of what you say... except the "avoid" part. I'd say learn it - and look for the flaws. By recognizing the flaws in the system you have just rule learned something useful. You have this info - and now you want to share it! Rather why not teach them what it is (as Mark does) PLUS why it isn't the be all and end all. Because no system is that. THIS is the lesson.

Cheers!
 
I look at the CAGED system more as a method of playing chords in multiple positions than as a scale playing method...
 
Mark Wein said:
Well, that is the problem if all you are doing is memorizing a few finger patterns. I teach the CAGED system as a stepping stone to fretboard comprehension because it allows you to learn the fretboard in digestible bites. Then we expand beyond it to the point where it is not a consideration.
Click to expand...

This is how I learned originally - box shapes that connect up & down the fretboard - and then I linked them up mentally over the years. I don't think there's anything wrong with CAGED as long as it doesn't stop there, and it is a very digestible way to learn. Ultimately, I began to think in intervals for different scales, and chord tones with diatonic additions & nondiatonic alterations, but CAGED was an important early step in getting there.
 
BlackCat said:
http://guitarsworlds.blogspot.com/2014/08/5-things-youd-better-know-if-you.html

5. Avoid The CAGED System

Even though this system of playing guitar scales is quite popular among some guitar teachers, it is NEVER used by world class virtuoso guitar players because it places a huge number of restrictions on your ability to freely use scales in music. Without writing a 100 page dissertation about all the flaws of the CAGED system, its single biggest weakness is that it is not based on how scales ACTUALLY work in music for all instruments and is instead intended to create a shortcut only for guitar players by exploiting several isolated and completely illogical visual shapes on guitar (that, by the way, only work in standard tuning' and become totally useless in drop tunings or open tunings). The result of such a crippling system is that guitarists remain forever restricted in the way they can use scales musically and cannot play scales all over the guitar on the same level as other musicians who have a real and complete understanding of how scales are supposed to work in music. Fortunately, the complete and most efficient ways of practicing scales on guitar are not any more difficult to learn and understand than the (much flawed) CAGED system.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this and tell my students that, "If anyone tries to show you this, or the pentatonic minor scale, kick them in the balls."
It's a short cut that indeed does cripple beginning players because it makes them lazy.
Then they get used to hearing the flat 3 over major chords as being normal. It's bad scene.
I love to demonstrate the solo in "Alright Now" where the beginning is based in the major, and then it moves to the minor. I can show them what's going on there.
 
BlackCat said:
http://guitarsworlds.blogspot.com/2014/08/5-things-youd-better-know-if-you.html

5. Avoid The CAGED System

Even though this system of playing guitar scales is quite popular among some guitar teachers, it is NEVER used by world class virtuoso guitar players because it places a huge number of restrictions on your ability to freely use scales in music. Without writing a 100 page dissertation about all the flaws of the CAGED system, its single biggest weakness is that it is not based on how scales ACTUALLY work in music for all instruments and is instead intended to create a shortcut only for guitar players by exploiting several isolated and completely illogical visual shapes on guitar (that, by the way, only work in standard tuning' and become totally useless in drop tunings or open tunings). The result of such a crippling system is that guitarists remain forever restricted in the way they can use scales musically and cannot play scales all over the guitar on the same level as other musicians who have a real and complete understanding of how scales are supposed to work in music. Fortunately, the complete and most efficient ways of practicing scales on guitar are not any more difficult to learn and understand than the (much flawed) CAGED system.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this and tell my students that, "If anyone tries to show you this, or the pentatonic minor scale, kick them in the balls."
It's a short cut that indeed does cripple beginning players because it makes them lazy.
Then they get used to hearing the flat 3 over major chords as being normal. It's a bad scene.
I always teach the major/ionian first and then show how many scales and chords are built from it. This at least gives the student a working formula they can execute and build on.
I love to demonstrate the solo in "Alright Now" where the beginning is based in the major, and then it moves to the minor. I can show them what's going on there.
 
Telenator said:
Then they get used to hearing the flat 3 over major chords as being normal. It's a bad scene.
Click to expand...

I hear this problem a lot with jazz beginners playing the pentatonic minor or minor blues scale over the tonic chord of a major blues. Maybe that's traditional (I haven't really studied traditional blues much) but is generally frowned upon by jazzers.
 
Let's not forget the errant use of the b7 over the major 7 chord.
The b7 also implies major when played over the relative minor. It's just wrong. It forms bad habits and ruins the ear.
 
Telenator said:
Let's not forget the errant use of the b7 over the major 7 chord.
The b7 also implies major when played over the relative minor. It's just wrong. It forms bad habits and ruins the ear.
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I was actually thinking of a tonic dominant chord (I7) like in the first three measures of a 12-bar blues, which has the flat 7 (some would say the 4th measure too but I prefer to treat that as a 7alt leading to the IV7 in measure 5).
 
None of this is relevant to the CAGED system though. All of what you guys are talking about has to do with people not learning their theory properly in the first place. If someone is just learning scale patterns without understanding basic harmony or chord construction then they will apply all of this information incorrectly regardless of the form it is given to them in. The problem with guitar players in general is that they learn everything by rote instead of how musicians on other instruments learn their theory, harmony, accompaniment and improvisational skills. If you teach exclusively via physical patterns a musician isn't going to train their minds ear to hear what they want and how to tell their fingers where to find it and they aren't going to internalize any of this to the point where they own it.

I look at it this way:

1. The student learns the root patterns from all five CAGED positions. ROOTS ONLY.
2. Student learns how to construct a major scale linearly up one string at a time - they learn the landscape of whole and half steps, we talk about what note names to use and whatnot
3. Student learns to construct their own major scales around the CAGED patterns on paper first.
4. Student learns to play each major scale in time with the metronome while reciting out loud the scale degree (not the note names). This works on their rhythm, ear training and understanding of the relationships between notes in the major scale. The verbalization helps the student actually retain the function of each note in the scale mentally.
5. Student pulls the Root, 3 and 5 from the major scale patterns and learns those major triad arpeggios in time.
6. Student plays over a I chord vamp. First hear the major triad notes and then the non-triad notes against the I chord. What notes provide the backbone or structure of the Major tonality? Where will you resolve a phrase to and where what notes don't provide resolution against the chord? This is the starting point to being able to control the "question and answer" component to phrasing.
7. We work in another chord in that key and practice playing phrases that make sense against each chord within the parent major scale using chord tones for structure and the other scale tones for color.
8. pull the 4 and 7 out of the major scale to learn our major pentatonic scales in each position and to see how they relate to the diatonic major scale.

Then we do it with minor scales. By this point most rock and blues players have a pretty good understanding of basic harmony and the CAGED system is pretty much forgotten about as a system of 5 isolated cells. And chord voicing construction becomes much easier in any position because we know where all of the scale and chord tones are around each set of roots. And don't forget the ear training that happens through the process as well.
 
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True enough - we got a bit sidetracked. I learned initially through the caged system and found that it helped me understand the instrument and its limitations eventually fell away. I'm not much of a teacher but your system seems like that's what would eventually happen as the ear and knowledge of how intervals lay out on the fretboard take over.
 
My experience with teaching is that most students become lazy once they've been shown the pent minor scale and just try to slop it on top of everything.

Mark, I like the approach you're taking and wish my students would take a strong enough interest in it.
 
Telenator said:
My experience with teaching is that most students become lazy once they've been shown the pent minor scale and just try to slop it on top of everything.

Mark, I like the approach you're taking and wish my students would take a strong enough interest in it.
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Like most of what I teach its a bit of a hard sell until they start seeing results but totally worth it. Many of my students are adults though which helps. I'm also not afraid of just spending lesson time drilling them through things that they should do at home. This also applies to the Ross Bolton Funk Guitar book, which is a long and tedious haul but pays immense dividends to students of all styles and skill levels. Just gotta sell them that they need to push through for a while and theyll see results. Then when they actually do see results in a few weeks to a month its a bit easier to keep them on track.
 
Just goes to show there are really no shortcuts - it's possible to work smarter rather than harder, but a lot of hard work is inevitable if you really want to learn to play well and understand what is being played.

At the risk of sidetracking the thread again, How much of the Bolton book covers traditional funk rhythms? I'm putting together some funk and disco guitar parts for some dance music I'm working on and could use some rhythmic inspiration to get me out of sounding like a jazzer trying to play funk. I have a grasp on the theory and traditional dominant chord forms used but could use some work on the details of that style of music.
 
LittleSnakes said:
Just goes to show there are really no shortcuts - it's possible to work smarter rather than harder, but a lot of hard work is inevitable if you really want to learn to play well and understand what is being played.
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Absolutely. And that is the fight I have with the majority of my adult students. For some reason everyone wants or thinks that this will be easy.

LittleSnakes said:
At the risk of sidetracking the thread again, How much of the Bolton book covers traditional funk rhythms? I'm putting together some funk and disco guitar parts for some dance music I'm working on and could use some rhythmic inspiration to get me out of sounding like a jazzer trying to play funk. I have a grasp on the theory and traditional dominant chord forms used but could use some work on the details of that style of music.
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It would be a good study for you although many of the grooves are a little "LA Session Guy" sounding. This is also a great method for learning the style too: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...&tag=markweinguita-20&linkId=2WUGPMULWUHR3TPB

At the end of the day the best thing to do is to just transcribe a bunch of songs in the style you want to play if you are already a competent player...
 
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