So, you know how my Pro Tools mixes were kind of weak sounding?

Prages

Prages

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I struggled with my first few Pro Tools sessions because while I was mixing and mastering, things sounded good to me, but then when I'd post them here, I'd get lots of comments about how it was lacking low end and sounded kind of weak compared to my older recordings.

Well, I think I've finally figured out why that is.

I finished recording and mixing/mastering my recordingfest entry this morning. I bounced the mix/master down to a wave file and also as an mp3. Then I burned both to a CD to listen to on the way to work.

The mp3 is much quieter and lacks a lot of punch that is present in the wave file.

So, I think my problem all along has been my mp3 encoder. I used Musicmatch Jukebox on my old computer, but I've been using either Windows Media Player or encoding direct to mp3 from Pro Tools on the new system. Even at 192kbps sample rate, the mp3 sounds like crap compared to the wave file, and on the old system, I could barely hear a difference between mp3 and wave, even when I encoded the mp3 at 128 kbps.

So, I think I'm going to try to get Musicmatch on my new machine and see if that solves my problems. :embarrassed:

Just thought I'd share.
 
Why not spend the $20 for the mp3 encoder for ProTools? Then you can export straight out of it at whatever quality you need.
 
Mark Wein said:
Why not spend the $20 for the mp3 encoder for ProTools? Then you can export straight out of it at whatever quality you need.
Click to expand...

The mp3 encoder is standard on Pro-Tools 9, and that's what I used this morning, yet the mp3 still sounds like crap compared to the wave file. I made no adjustments at all. Bounced to wave, then when that was done, bounced to mp3 at 192 kbps. Maybe there are some advanced settings I can fiddle with or something. :shrug:
 
Prages said:
The mp3 encoder is standard on Pro-Tools 9, and that's what I used this morning, yet the mp3 still sounds like crap compared to the wave file. I made no adjustments at all. Bounced to wave, then when that was done, bounced to mp3 at 192 kbps. Maybe there are some advanced settings I can fiddle with or something. :shrug:
Click to expand...

Well, it isn't going to sound as good as the wav no matter what you do due to the file compression but I'd set the rate to something much higher.
 
Prages said:
The mp3 encoder is standard on Pro-Tools 9, and that's what I used this morning, yet the mp3 still sounds like crap compared to the wave file. I made no adjustments at all. Bounced to wave, then when that was done, bounced to mp3 at 192 kbps. Maybe there are some advanced settings I can fiddle with or something. :shrug:
Click to expand...

I always bounce mp3s at 320 and uncheck the box to filter below 10hz. Out of curiosity, are you recording at 24/48? It might be a dither issue.
 
Kerouac said:
I always bounce mp3s at 320 and uncheck the box to filter below 10hz. Out of curiosity, are you recording at 24/48? It might be a dither issue.
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I'll have to play around with the settings. I didn't even look at what they were other than the bit rate.

FWIW, I've always done mp3s at 192 in the past and they've come out sounding pretty damned good. 320 kbps would result in a pretty large file (12mb+) wouldn't it?
 
I've been reading the manual. :embarrassed:

It's given me a few ideas of what I might need to do to get my final mix sounding the way I want it to. I'll give them a shot the next time I'm messing with it.
 
Prages said:
I'll have to play around with the settings. I didn't even look at what they were other than the bit rate.

FWIW, I've always done mp3s at 192 in the past and they've come out sounding pretty damned good. 320 kbps would result in a pretty large file (12mb+) wouldn't it?
Click to expand...

Most usually are in the 6-12 range, depending on length. I did a backing track for a student yesterday and bounced at 320 and it came out to 5.7. :shrug:
 
After reading the manual, I'm thinking some of my problem is that I'm not using a dithering plugin on the master fader. I never did with Cubase, but it may have automatically dithered. I thought Pro Tools did as well since you can select the bit rate on mix down, but according to the manual you are still supposed to use a dithering plugin when mixing from 24 bit to 16.

So, tonight I'm planning on playing round with it. I've got the thing sounding great when I'm monitoring it in Pro Tools, so I think it's probably just a matter of me not doing something right with dithering/encoding.
 
Prages said:
After reading the manual, I'm thinking some of my problem is that I'm not using a dithering plugin on the master fader. I never did with Cubase, but it may have automatically dithered. I thought Pro Tools did as well since you can select the bit rate on mix down, but according to the manual you are still supposed to use a dithering plugin when mixing from 24 bit to 16.

So, tonight I'm planning on playing round with it. I've got the thing sounding great when I'm monitoring it in Pro Tools, so I think it's probably just a matter of me not doing something right with dithering/encoding.
Click to expand...

That's kinda weird. You insert it as a plug on the master output? I've never seen a dither control outside of of the Export screen. I guess I need to start learning more about PT. :embarrassed:
 
Kerouac said:
That's kinda weird. You insert it as a plug on the master output? I've never seen a dither control outside of of the Export screen. I guess I need to start learning more about PT. :embarrassed:
Click to expand...

From the manual:

Dithering

Dither can significantly improve audio quality
when reducing the bit depth of digital audio.

When to Use a Dither Plug-In

You should use a dither plug-in in any situation
where you are reducing bit depth, for example,
when mixing down to a 16-bit file with the
Bounce to Disk command, or when sending
your final mix to an external digital device that
records at 16-bit resolution.
A dither plug-in is necessary even when mixing
down to 16-bit from a 16-bit session. Even
though 16-bit sessions use 16-bit files, they are
still processed at higher internal bit depths.

• Pro Tools|HD systems use 24-bit audio input
and output signal paths, and internal 48-bit
mixing and processing

• Pro Tools systems use 24-bit audio input and
output signal paths, and internal 32-bit floating
point processing for mixing and audio
processing

For this reason, whether you are working with a
24-bit session or a 16-bit session, the following
are recommended:

• When mixing down to a 16-bit destination,
use a dither plug-in on the main output.

• When bus recording a submix to a track in the
same session, do not use a dither plug-in on
the destination track.

• When mixing down to a 24-bit destination,
do not use a dither plug-in on the main
output.

• When mixing down to an analog destination
with any 24-bit capable interface, do not use a
dither plug-in on the main output.

During normal recording and playback, bypass
any dither plug-in on the main output.

Bounce to Disk and Dither

Bouncing to disk does not apply dither when reducing
bit depth. To apply dither when bouncing
to disk, you should insert a dither plug-in as
the last processor in the signal path on a Master
Fader assigned to the bounce source audio output
path.

Using a dither plug-in on a Master Fader is preferable
to an Auxiliary Input because Master
Fader inserts are post-fader. As a post-fader insert,
the dither plug-in can process changes in
Master Fader level.

If you do not use a dither plug-in on your
bounce source path, and you choose to convert
to a lower resolution during or after bouncing to
disk, the resulting file will be converted by truncation.
Click to expand...
 
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See if Audiograbber is still available on the net.

It is awesome. You can just drag the wav file into the window and let it go.
 
Audiograbber is still available. . . 1.83 I think is the final version. Don't recall if it'll do 24-bit though. . .

Although Audiograbber uses external mp3 encoders anyway. . .
 
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Format factory

Or...

I just used to use my iTunes software to convert with my old covers before I actually paid for a program.
 
Pro Tools 9 and beyond has a free MP3 encoder. iTunes' MP3 encoder is good. I've never had a problem converting WAV files to MP3 with either, nor have I noticed a marked decrease in volume. And this is without any fiddling under the hood. I don't know what the problem might be, but at 192kbps or above, it sounds fine. I don't know what would account for the decrease in volume or marked difference in sound. I've been doing it the same way since Pro Tools 5.1 and with iTunes (that'd be about ten years now) and never noticed a difference, so I'm curious about what's going on with the OP.

I don't always use a dithering plugin on the master buss in Pro Tools. A/B 'em and see whether it makes a difference or not. Personally, I don't think it's always necessary, but then again, I make the math easy by recording at 44.1kHz. Unless you are recording for film or for some other compelling reason, if you are intend your music to go to CD or MP3, I wouldn't bother with 48kHz recording. And if you are going to use higher sampling frequencies, I'd do 88.2kHz so it's halved to 44.1kHz just to make sure there's no funny math computations. Bear in mind that I don't have a firm basis for this, and don't want to perpetuate internet rumors, but it's still not a bad idea to make certain.

-Ken
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my photography site - kenleephotography.com
my recording studio - blueberrybuddha.com
NEW! my new music project - cdbaby.com/cd/mercuryseven/
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Holy crap, I seem to remember you from another forum! You're at HC and over at Tweakheadz, right? Welcome. :)
 
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