What Do I Need?

[Johnny N.]

I'll explain my issues in idiot terms and see if you can help me figure out if I need to get something or do something different.

Ok, I use a Line 6 Toneport UX1 to record vocals with a Cobalt something or other dynamic mic into Reaper. Same issues existed when I used Ableton.

What happens is, I can never get the vocal volume level, and I assume corresponding input level high enough. I have to crank up the volume on the UX1 and bring the sliders way down on all of the other tracks and most of the way up on the vocal track to hear it well enough. This is with bypassing all of the presets in the UX1. If I dont bypass the presets, I still have a hard time getting enough volume if I take off some of the effects and just use the preamp. Anything I get enough volume from is over affected.

If I turn up the gain on the UX1, it is noticeable in a bad way. I didnt notice it that much but it has been pointed out on some of my coverfest entries that the gain was too high.

My thought was that if I had a different interface with phantom power and a condenser mic, I would have a better chance of getting volume and maybe better sound.

Or, am I just not doing something right to start with?

[paulskirocks]

Hmmm... I have the UX2, which I assume is pretty similar in function... Anyways, I sing through one of the guitar amps in the POD, but have it set to record dry... From there, since it was recorded dry, I can hardly hear it until I use some kind of VST devices to bring it back up, usually some kind of preamp and maybe a compressor/limiter...

[Prages]

You really shouldn't be having problems getting the recording level high enough with what you have.

Vocals are very tricky because they are VERY dynamic. You may have parts where the peaks are approaching 0db and other parts where you barely break -40db.

The best advice I can give you is to record the vocals at a level that are well below clipping. Once the track is recorded, then you can normalize it to -1db or so if it peaks way below that. Then use your compressor plugin to bring the overall level up.

You may still have to lower your sliders on everything else, but that's okay.

I usually have all my non-vocal sliders around -5db or lower. Then bring the vocals up to a good level. Make sure when you do it that you aren't going above 0db on any individual track, and even more importantly that your master bus isn't clipping.

If you had 10 tracks or so all running at or near 0db, I'm sure at some point two or more tracks are going to peak at the same time and push your master bus into clipping.

If, when you get it all mixed and sounding good, your master bus is way too quiet, that's fine. You shouldn't have a huge noise floor with digital recording, so you can always mix it quietly, then normalize/compress the stereo mix down. That's kind of the whole idea behind mastering. Get the track mixed right at a level that is not clipping anywhere, then you can handle making it louder/punchier/etc when you master the track.

[mosiddiqi]

What Prages said..

It is odd that you can't get enough volume..:idk:

I use the Guitar Rig Session interface, which does have phantom power, and I'm using a condenser mic for vocals..but still..

There is this short thread on the line6 site that sounds like a similar problem:

http://line6.com/supportarchive/thread/40817

[Prages]

Using a condensor really shouldn't be a factor in how loud you can get your vocals. You should have more than enough gain on your mic pre to push a dynamic mic right up and over the clipping threshhold.

A condensor mic might sound better but there's no reason that it would sound louder, given that you adjust the input gain so they are both peaking at around the same level.

[mosiddiqi]

Using a condensor really shouldn't be a factor in how loud you can get your vocals. You should have more than enough gain on your mic pre to push a dynamic mic right up and over the clipping threshhold.

A condensor mic might sound better but there's no reason that it would sound louder, given that you adjust the input gain so they are both peaking at around the same level.

Agreed..it sounds to me more of an issue with the line6 presets..:idk:...the line6 advice in that thread seems to be that the compressor HAS to be engaged and boosted a bit...

[Prages]

There is this short thread on the line6 site that sounds like a similar problem:

http://line6.com/supportarchive/thread/40817


Okay, I just read that thread.

Johnny, is your mic cable a 1/4" or an XLR? If it's 1/4", there's your problem.

The 1/4" input on the interface is operating at instrument level and doesn't go through a preamp. The XLR input would be what you want to use. That would route the signal through the mic pre.

[Prages]

Agreed..it sounds to me more of an issue with the line6 presets..:idk:...the line6 advice in that thread seems to be that the compressor HAS to be engaged and boosted a bit...


I think the guy in the thread is plugging his mic into the 1/4" input, which doesn't even have a mic pre. That's why he gets such low volume from it.

[mosiddiqi]

Okay, I just read that thread.

Johnny, is your mic cable a 1/4" or an XLR? If it's 1/4", there's your problem.

The 1/4" input on the interface is operating at instrument level and doesn't go through a preamp. The XLR input would be what you want to use. That would route the signal through the mic pre.


I think the guy in the thread is plugging his mic into the 1/4" input, which doesn't even have a mic pre. That's why he gets such low volume from it.

:idea:..comprehension...you haz it. :o

[Johnny N.]

I just went back in my song and normalized the vocal track and it, of course, made a huge difference. This would have been great to know a week ago. I understand the concept behind the compressor but not quite getting the feel for application yet.

I dont know if it was doing it before I normalized but now, no track is near clipping but the master is. If I bring down the slider on the master, it doesnt clip. So, am I correct to assume that I would need to bring that master slider down so it doesnt clip before rendering?

Sorry for the basic questions but the learning curve is steep and I think I just skipped over a lot of this initially and just hit record.

[Johnny N.]

Okay, I just read that thread.

Johnny, is your mic cable a 1/4" or an XLR? If it's 1/4", there's your problem.

The 1/4" input on the interface is operating at instrument level and doesn't go through a preamp. The XLR input would be what you want to use. That would route the signal through the mic pre.



Nah, its XLR. I think it is more my recording knowledge at this point. I am slowly getting there but I have to talk it out like this.

[Prages]

I dont know if it was doing it before I normalized but now, no track is near clipping but the master is. If I bring down the slider on the master, it doesnt clip. So, am I correct to assume that I would need to bring that master slider down so it doesnt clip before rendering?

Sorry for the basic questions but the learning curve is steep and I think I just skipped over a lot of this initially and just hit record.

There are two ways to approach it. If none of the individual tracks are clipping, you can just bring the master slider down until it isn't clipping.

Or, you can bring each of the individual tracks down, leaving the master at 0.

I've always been told that you should leave your master at 0, though I don't really know why, or if it really makes a difference in the digital world.

[Prages]

Nah, its XLR. I think it is more my recording knowledge at this point. I am slowly getting there but I have to talk it out like this.

Well, it sounds like you have the right equipment to get the job done, anyway.

Does the interface have an input level and an output level?

If so, is there something that tells you if your input level is clipping? This would be a meter or an led on the interface itself...not in your software. If so, you want to adjust the input level so that it's as loud as you can get it without clipping the mic pre. Then you can use the software meter and the output knob on the interface to bring that level up to where it's close to, but not clipping.

If the interface doesn't have both an input and output knob, (I can't find a picture that clearly shows the label on the knob over by the inputs), then just use the output knob and the software meter to set the volume as high as you can get it without being in danger of clipping.

And definitely do some playing around with compression. You'd be amazed at how much difference it makes on a vocal track once you figure out how it works and what you're trying to do with it.

[Johnny N.]

So now I brought the master bus slider up to 0 and put a compressor on the master. Is this acceptable? What about eq on the master?

[Johnny N.]

This unit has an output knob and a gain knob but no meter on the hardware. It has a meter in the software where you see the preamp. I always saw the output knob as a volume so I could hear it knob.

It is all starting to make more sense though. I appreciate the class.

[Prages]

This unit has an output knob and a gain knob but no meter on the hardware. It has a meter in the software where you see the preamp. I always saw the output knob as a volume so I could hear it knob.

It is all starting to make more sense though. I appreciate the class.

Does the output knob effect the signal in the software, or does it just effect the headphone output?


So now I brought the master bus slider up to 0 and put a compressor on the master. Is this acceptable? What about eq on the master?

You still want your master set so it isn't clipping even before you apply effects. After you do that, then yes, by all means you can use compression and EQ on the master. That is basically what 'mastering' is.

[Johnny N.]

Does the output knob effect the signal in the software, or does it just effect the headphone output?



.



I am pretty sure it will affect the signal but I'll have to verify that later. I think I have to monitor through Reaper whether or not it is clipping. Not sure the Line 6 gauges are precise or not.

Levels is definitely making more sense to me now though. I need to play with compression and eq a bunch more. The compressor plug in is supposed to be pretty good but is pretty complex so it may take a bit. EQ is more baffling to me at the moment. At least how to apply to several tracks to make sure they dont step on each other. I seriously need to commit to recording more stuff just so my hands are on it more often.

[Prages]

EQ is more baffling to me at the moment. At least how to apply to several tracks to make sure they dont step on each other. I seriously need to commit to recording more stuff just so my hands are on it more often.

I really don't do a ton of EQing when I'm mixing. I try to dial in a tone that works right off the bat. I will sometimes go in and do some minor EQing like cutting lows on the guitar tracks if they are muddy sounding with the bass guitar track playing. I also usually add some highs on guitar tracks just to give them a little extra sizzle.

I use EQ on drum tracks, but if you're using a drum software you shouldn't really need to.

EQ is another thing that you can read about until you turn blue, but actually spending some time playing with it will probably do you more good than reading about it.

[Kerouac]

Easily the best thing I've ever done for my recordings is leave more headroom. If you're recording at the 24-bit rate, there is no reason to record hot... aim for input levels of -18 with peaks about -12. If you're clipping on your master fader, turn down the other tracks, but leave the MF at unity. Proper gain staging makes a HUGE difference in the quality of the final product and having a final mix with lower overall volume and plenty of headroom is a better way to go... you can always apply a mastering plug (or chain together a couple of processors to replicate one) to bring your overall level up after the fact.

[Kerouac]

EQ is another thing that you can read about until you turn blue, but actually spending some time playing with it will probably do you more good than reading about it.

+1.

If you really want to experiment with EQ, get a couple of drum loops or guitar loops from somewhere and listen to how the different frequencies affect the sound. Take notes and remember that for correction, subtractive EQ is the best bet whereas for EFFECT additive EQ is better.

[Johnny N.]

I appreciate the input. I at least have some guidelines to start with. I am very guilty of not reading instructions and just go. Up to now, I have basically hit record, added some reverb and print it.

I dont want to just keep trying to buy better stuff to fix the problem. I still may look at a condenser at some point. A cheap condenser still has to be better than my cheap dynamic. I feel like it is taking things away from my vocals and I am trying to put stuff back after the fact. Could just be me too.

[Kerouac]

I appreciate the input. I at least have some guidelines to start with. I am very guilty of not reading instructions and just go. Up to now, I have basically hit record, added some reverb and print it.

I dont want to just keep trying to buy better stuff to fix the problem. I still may look at a condenser at some point. A cheap condenser still has to be better than my cheap dynamic. I feel like it is taking things away from my vocals and I am trying to put stuff back after the fact. Could just be me too.

If you're interested in getting a bit more into the nitty gritty, this is an EXCELLENT book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0240520688/ref=s9_qpp_gw_p14_ir07?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-5&pf_rd_r=08HQ1680CVEHWC9S545E&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470939291&pf_rd_i=507846

It's like a textbook though, so you might have to dig your heels in a bit... not an easy read but every single page has something useful on it. Another good one is:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0240520688/ref=s9_qpp_gw_p14_ir07?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-5&pf_rd_r=08HQ1680CVEHWC9S545E&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470939291&pf_rd_i=507846

[Prages]

I never read a thing about recording until after I'd already gotten pretty decent at it. :o

The way I learned was this:

Got a 4 track cassette recorder, a set of headphones, 2 cheap mics, and a big box of blank cassettes.
Started recording. Made tons of really bad recordings.
Started slowly getting better sounding recordings.
Figured out how to use my guitar effects processor for reverb.
Made tons more slightly less bad recordings.
Picked up a dedicated reverb processor and compressor on the cheap.
Made tons more even less bad recordings.
Eventually got a better mic.
Even more recordings.

Eventually the 4 track was falling apart from use, but I'd managed to figure out how to get pretty good sounding stuff out of the equipment I had.

Then I bought a stand alone 8 track digital and made tons more recordings.

Then I threw a monkey wrench into the whole thing by going to computer recording. That set me back a bit because my first attempt was with a pretty early version of a pretty shitty DAW with no real interface. I got a few things recorded on that rig that didn't completely suck before I gave up on it and bought a Lexicon Omega that came bundled with Cubase LE and a pretty decent, but not overly hefty plugin bundle.

That was the golden ticket. I was able to use the computer just like I used to use my stand alone, only I had lots more options with EQ and compression, and reverb and delay and modulation effects.

Started upgrading mics and got some decent monitors.

Then I got the T-Racks 24 mastering suite, which kicked the recordings up a whole lot.

Then I got the Firepods.

Of course, that's about a 20 year time-line. Reading stuff may shorten the learning curve a bit. :o

[Johnny N.]

That is kind of the track I have been on. I dont know that I will commit to reading books but I have at least decided to ask questions if I dont know instead of just skipping it or moving on. I guess my objective at this point is to develop somewhat of a template of how to work so it isnt so daunting every time I go to record something. There are so many options and features in Reaper, or any software I suppose, that it seems overwhelming. I figure if I can get a good handle on the basics, I can play with other stuff here and there. Primarily, I want to get much better at recording vocals.

I cant afford to be on the 20 year plan. Thank goodness for the internet.

[Kerouac]

That is kind of the track I have been on. I dont know that I will commit to reading books but I have at least decided to ask questions if I dont know instead of just skipping it or moving on. I guess my objective at this point is to develop somewhat of a template of how to work so it isnt so daunting every time I go to record something. There are so many options and features in Reaper, or any software I suppose, that it seems overwhelming. I figure if I can get a good handle on the basics, I can play with other stuff here and there. Primarily, I want to get much better at recording vocals.

I cant afford to be on the 20 year plan. Thank goodness for the internet.

If you're not sure about the books, get the Guerrilla Recording one. It's VERY funny and digestible.

[Johnny N.]

If you're not sure about the books, get the Guerrilla Recording one. It's VERY funny and digestible.



It's more about time than anything. I would love to sit down with a book and work through it from front to back and then get another but I end up with barely enough time to work on improving with the guitar much less devote to reading and working through the recording process. I have to kind of accept that I cant get it to the level I want to for now and learn what I can here and there. Kinda sucks but I my job and my family occupy most of my time. I'm not complaining, I like it that way but it is definitely hindering my rise to stardom.

[Prages]

The fact that you're already to the point of getting pretty good sounding recording puts you ahead of the game.

What I did when I switched from stand-alone to computer based is that for the first few mixes, I just completely ignored all plug-ins. Once you can get a decent mix with no effects, then you listen and decide "that vocal line is way too loud in places and way too quiet in others. Let's add some compression" or "you know, that bass line is a little muddy...let's try to EQ it" or "Those vocals sound too dry. Let's play with reverb today".

You don't have to use a ton of effects for a good mix. In fact, unless there's a certain sound you're going for, generally a little EQ, compression, and reverb is all you really need.

[Johnny N.]

I am with you on all of that. I dont have the time to learn all of the tricks and crazy stuff anyway. I just want to make sure I'm not missing something simple. I do feel like every time I record something, I learn and get better.

Here's another question. Do you guys record all of your tracks in mono or is there a time where recording in stereo make sense?

[Prages]

The only time I record a track in stereo is if it's a keyboard track. No use using a stereo track to record a single mic, and when I double up on mics, I like to put each mic on a mono track and then pan them hard left and hard right.

[mosiddiqi]

Mono all the time for me.

[Johnny N.]

Thanks. I know nothing. :o

I am going to try to record a song this week for practice. If life will stay out of the way for a minute.

[Peeker]

I will, on the rare occassion, record in stereo.
because with the Pod, I can have one tone on the left, and a 2nd on the right.
double up my vox/guitar, whatever, in half the time.

but generally speaking, I don't bother.
it's not often I want two different-sounding tracks to play exactly the same