the perils of Gibson's short neck tenon

[Help!I'maRock!]

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2202984


This is not a Gibson-bashing thread by intent. I really like their guitars and I adore my R8 and LPVM. HOWEVER, this shit is ridiculous.

Now that I've qualified the following (which I shouldn't have to but I know how this forum works), this is a stock Les Paul Special that I sold to a fellow. It was damaged in delivery and I was quick to blame UPS, but with construction like this, I imagine it only took the truck hitting a speed bump to break it apart.

First, here's the heel. Something should jump right out - that's not one but TWO shims. Even with these, the neck still "wiggles" when set into place.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Carbohydrates/LPSpl/spl_shims.jpg


Now have a look at this. The way the neck broke, it took some of the top of the guitar with it (as you can see above). The resulting cross-section shows you exactly how the neck fit into the heel. Note the shims again as well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Carbohydrates/LPSpl/spl_34.jpg


Looking down the sides. Look how little physical contact there is between the body and the tenon here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Carbohydrates/LPSpl/spl_downside.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Carbohydrates/LPSpl/spl_downside2.jpg


The blue tape is because I decided to snap these just before epoxying it back together, by the way.

[Mark Wein]

messedup0

Do they still make models with the short neck tenon?

[Help!I'maRock!]

messedup0

Do they still make models with the short neck tenon?


your beloved Les Paul Standard has the short neck tenon. the only LP in Gibson's USA line that doesn't use it is the '08 Standard.

[Mark Wein]

messedup0

Do they still make models with the short neck tenon?


your beloved Les Paul Standard has the short neck tenon. the only LP in Gibson's USA line that doesn't use it is the '08 Standard.


I guess I should quit dropping it all the time then :weebz:

And the reasoning for the shit....er short tenon?

[Help!I'maRock!]

the short tenon is a Norlin development. you can actually see the transition that happened in the 70s in this pic:

http://www.pisotones.com/Elias/LP-Custom/Tenons.jpg

the transitional tenon removed the wood from underneath the pickup. but the real problem is the rocker joint, as you can see in the short image. it basically allows the tenon to float in the body. along with the swiss cheese body, this is how every LP Gibson has made in their USA line has been constructed since 1986 when the current ownership took over.

its entirely possible that the reason your guitar plays and sounds so great is because it has more contact at the neck joint than other USA LPs.

[Mark Wein]

why is the short tenon curved, though?

[Help!I'maRock!]

why is the short tenon curved, though?


that's the rocker joint. it allows for more play so that the neck can be adjusted to the proper angle in the neck pocket. the problem with this thinking is that if the neck pockets were properly cut to begin with, you wouldn't need the rocker joint to adjust the angle.

ever played an LP that just won't set up well? welcome to the rocker joint.

[Mark Wein]

kind of like the adjustment screw holes you used to see in the neckplate of strats (they might still have them...I haven't looked in a while).

But yeah...doing it right in the first place might have been nice...

[Help!I'maRock!]

kind of like the adjustment screw holes you used to see in the neckplate of strats (they might still have them...I haven't looked in a while).

But yeah...doing it right in the first place might have been nice...


actually, the adjustment screw is a great idea. every bolt on neck has some kind of shim in it. picks make a great shim.

[Prages]

kind of like the adjustment screw holes you used to see in the neckplate of strats (they might still have them...I haven't looked in a while).

But yeah...doing it right in the first place might have been nice...


actually, the adjustment screw is a great idea. every bolt on neck has some kind of shim in it. picks make a great shim.


Not every bolt on neck has a shim, but yeah, a lot of them do. I've got a shim in my orange Warmoth to make up for the neck angle needed for the Floyd. My quilted Warmoth doesn't have a shim, and neither of my Wolfgangs or my US Masters have shims.

[telecaster911]

I don't have any shims in my bolt ons. I don't use the neck angle adjustment either. It would bug me too much that the neck wasn't just nice and tight against the body. idn_smilie

[Mark Wein]

bump

[baimun]

That is freakin' reeeeediculous.

The neck pocket is nothing but air and glue. Jezus.... I could measure a closer fit with no rulers and just my FINGERS and get a closer fit than that.

[baimun]

Check this out....

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h247/pete2112/SC2.jpg


And that's not even a US made PRS... it's from a Korean SE model.

[Prages]

My Edwards has a tenon/mortise joint that is perfectly done as well. I have no idea what my Gibson's neck joint looks like because it is a short tenon and the neck (thankfully) hasn't fallen off of it yet. :o

Here's the PRS type guitar I built. Even on my first attempt, the neck joint looks a hell of a lot better than the one on that LP Special.

http://www.thewindtunnel.com/GuitarPics/Build/Together1.jpg

http://www.thewindtunnel.com/GuitarPics/Build/Together2.jpg

[Denverdave]

And Gibson is charging how much for these guitars?

It really makes a case for buying a much older LP, or a good makers 'copy' version. They certainly are not concerned about the long term playability of their guitars any more...

[Mark Wein]

I love my 2004 standard but I would have to find a SERIOUSLY magic gibson to ever think of buying another new guitar from them.

[Chihlidog]

Wow. I had no idea. *scratches LP off of GAS list*

[Prages]

Wow. I had no idea. *scratches LP off of GAS list*

You're kind of looking at 'worst case scenario' right there.

While Gibsons do range quite a bit in quality, I'd be that one that bad making it out the door is pretty rare.

I love my '98 Standard, and I'm not about to try to take the neck off to see if the joint is any better than that one.

That said, my '98 Standard was a great guitar for the $1300 that I paid for it. I'd never pay the current asking price for a new one though.

[Chihlidog]

You're kind of looking at 'worst case scenario' right there.

While Gibsons do range quite a bit in quality, I'd be that one that bad making it out the door is pretty rare.

I love my '98 Standard, and I'm not about to try to take the neck off to see if the joint is any better than that one.

That said, my '98 Standard was a great guitar for the $1300 that I paid for it. I'd never pay the current asking price for a new one though.

See, to me, a 1300 dollar guitar better be as close to perfect as a human is capable of producing. I understand it may not be the prettiest with all of the bells and whistles, but it better be superb quality. That obviously is not.

Seriously, seeing that makes me not at all interested in a newer Gibson anymore. The weight reduction/hollow bit doesnt bother me really, but that neck joint is HORRIBLE. Really, how much could they possibly save by making it that way vs. the long tenon?

[Mark Wein]

See, to me, a 1300 dollar guitar better be as close to perfect as a human is capable of producing. I understand it may not be the prettiest with all of the bells and whistles, but it better be superb quality. That obviously is not.

Seriously, seeing that makes me not at all interested in a newer Gibson anymore. The weight reduction/hollow bit doesnt bother me really, but that neck joint is HORRIBLE. Really, how much could they possibly save by making it that way vs. the long tenon?

I think the newest Standards have the long neck tenon this year...I just can't get past a $2600 street price for an instrument that I spent $1595 for 5 years ago.

[Denverdave]

I think the newest Standards have the long neck tenon this year...I just can't get past a $2600 street price for an instrument that I spent $1595 for 5 years ago.

Especially when you can get a custom shop Fender for less than that, or choose a small builder custom build in the same price range...

[telecaster911]

Especially when you can get a custom shop Fender for less than that, or choose a small builder custom build in the same price range...

SHHHHH...quit saying the f word....no one here likes fenders, remember?biggrin

[Help!I'maRock!]

See, to me, a 1300 dollar guitar better be as close to perfect as a human is capable of producing. I understand it may not be the prettiest with all of the bells and whistles, but it better be superb quality. That obviously is not.

Seriously, seeing that makes me not at all interested in a newer Gibson anymore. The weight reduction/hollow bit doesnt bother me really, but that neck joint is HORRIBLE. Really, how much could they possibly save by making it that way vs. the long tenon?


I think the newest Standards have the long neck tenon this year...I just can't get past a $2600 street price for an instrument that I spent $1595 for 5 years ago.

i agree with Chihli. the short neck tenon totally got me away from Gibson. the only guitar of theirs under $2k i'd remotely consider is the SG Classic. and now that's discontinued. the guitars above that are the '08 Standard (have to watch which version of the Standard you get, lots of short neck tenon models out there) and the Gibson Johnny A Standard. those are $2500 and $3400, respectively.

i own three expensive guitars. the PRS and Ric are both set neck, but obviously of different construction. regardless, there is no question they were set right. the tenon fits into the mortise. no guesswork, no rocker joint, no nothing. just a tight fit.

the other guitar is my Taylor 414ce. it actually has a bolt-on neck. you have to really look to find the bolts. they're behind a sticker, inside the body. the neck fits into a dovetail joint rout (just like a standard acoustic neck joint), and its bolted from the inside. the only indicator is that there's no glue anywhere. otherwise, you'd never know.

when Gibson can compete with those (or if i find an SG i really like for $500), i'll get one.

[Prages]

Well, I'll just say this.

Chihili can play my Les Paul when he comes to Pragestock and form his own opinion of it. Is it perfect? Probably not. But, it is well worth the $1300 I spent on it...short neck tenon or not.

I'm I'm not a Gibson Fanboy. I'd take either of my Warmoths over a Gibson any day. I even admit that my Edwards is as close to Gibson as you can get, and I paid about $700 for that one.

That particular neck joint is abysmal, but they aren't all like that.

[telecaster911]

*takes R8 to the emergency room for an x-ray*

[Help!I'maRock!]

*takes R8 to the emergency room for an x-ray*

your R8 has the long neck tenon.

[telecaster911]

I know, just making a funny:D